Seeking brake pad recommendation

[ACG]

After several drivers' schools and track events I feel it's time to install better brake pads. The last time I was on the track my Pagid Red pads seemed to fade, and I think it's time to install something better. My 1997 328is is my only car, so the majority of my driving is all-purpose, daily driving, so I need a brake pad that will work well for that use as well as on the track for drivers' schools. I don't want to change out pads just for track events so I'm looking for an all-application product. I'm thinking about Cool Carbon pads and would like to hear advice. Thoughts?

[1996 328ti]

That is like saying I want a good tire in snow that also gives me grip on the track.
Personally, it's track pads or street pads. I don't think you can have it both ways.

Assuming you have an area to work on your car, it really doesn't take long to swap pads and at the same time you can flush brake fluid.
I've used Carbotech XP10 for track and Carbotech Bobcats for the street because it is a similar compound.
Swapping different compounds can lead to problems.

I generally leave my track pads during the driving school season.
Dust doesn't bother me.

[mcoupemindy]

I might get some heat with this, but check out the Hawk Pads. At stock power, the Hawk HP+ pads I used on the M Coupe held up just fine and are good for every day duty (if you can stand a little bit of squeal). Pretty much anything, including stock, will be better than Pagid Reds.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

I might get some heat with this, but check out the Hawk Pads. At stock power, the Hawk HP+ pads I used on the M Coupe held up just fine and are good for every day duty (if you can stand a little bit of squeal). Pretty much anything, including stock, will be better than Pagid Reds.

And I have heat ready: The Hawk HP+ is absolutely, utterly inappropriate for track use. You should NEVER, EVER recommend them for use because of their fade characteristics. Quite simply, when they fade, they tend to fall off a cliff. You go from GREAT braking to basically none at all. I'm on my fourth set of HP+ pads and I love them for street and autox use. They are NOT track pads and should not be used as such. Almost anything is a better choice simply because almost anything else will have more predictable fade characteristics.

The only track pads that I've liked (I've used a variety of Hawk HT and DTCs, as well as a bunch of the Carbotech XPs) are the PFCs. The cost of the pads is higher, but they brake MUCH better and they have consistently lasted dramatically longer for me. (The Carbotechs were particularly unable to withstand me - two track days was the absolute limit for a set.) I'd just run a set of PFC06es for the season and change back when you're done.

[mcoupemindy]

And I have heat ready: The Hawk HP+ is absolutely, utterly inappropriate for track use. You should NEVER, EVER recommend them for use because of their fade characteristics. Quite simply, when they fade, they tend to fall off a cliff. You go from GREAT braking to basically none at all. I'm on my fourth set of HP+ pads and I love them for street and autox use. They are NOT track pads and should not be used as such. Almost anything is a better choice simply because almost anything else will have more predictable fade characteristics.

The only track pads that I've liked (I've used a variety of Hawk HT and DTCs, as well as a bunch of the Carbotech XPs) are the PFCs. The cost of the pads is higher, but they brake MUCH better and they have consistently lasted dramatically longer for me. (The Carbotechs were particularly unable to withstand me - two track days was the absolute limit for a set.) I'd just run a set of PFC06es for the season and change back when you're done.

Yep, exactly as I expected. However, every instructor that drove my car had NO complaints. They shouldn't have performed the way they did, but they did. Mind you the car was lighter than the normal e36 with them and not really that quick.

Note that I did not recommend the HP+, rather to take a look at their lineup. They are affordable and they perform well.

[1996 328ti]

Yep, exactly as I expected. However, every instructor that drove my car had NO complaints. They shouldn't have performed the way they did, but they did. Mind you the car was lighter than the normal e36 with them and not really that quick.

Note that I did not recommend the HP+, rather to take a look at their lineup. They are affordable and they perform well.

Instructor on track for 25 minutes? Plus they were driving your car so they may have not been driving it very hard.
I think it depends how aggressive you are on brakes.

I've driven with good street pads on track because I packed the wrong pads with me.
I had to change my braking style by braking earlier and longer. I didn't think they were going to last the day.
You just can't slow down from 120 to 50 consistently with confidence on street pads

Everyone has their favorite track pads, but ask anyone. Street pads don't cut it on the track.
And if they say they do, they've never used track pads.

[mcoupemindy]

Instructor on track for 25 minutes? Plus they were driving your car so they may have not been driving it very hard.
I think it depends how aggressive you are on brakes.

I've driven with good street pads on track because I packed the wrong pads with me.
I had to change my braking style by braking earlier and longer. I didn't think they were going to last the day.
You just can't slow down from 120 to 50 consistently with confidence on street pads

Everyone has their favorite track pads, but ask anyone. Street pads don't cut it on the track.
And if they say they do, they've never used track pads.

Well, since I'm a track n00b, I'm relatively light on brakes. That's probably the reason. Was only driving the car 7/10 as I should.

I don't disagree with anything you / Nick are saying. Please don't take it as such.

[1996 328ti]

Well, since I'm a track n00b, I'm relatively light on brakes. That's probably the reason. Was only driving the car 7/10 as I should.

I don't disagree with anything you / Nick are saying. Please don't take it as such.

For someone new to the track, street pads are fine.
I guess it comes down to ACG's braking style and how often he wants to replace street pads.

My street pads were toast after a weekend and I'm conservative.

[Claymore]

I ran Hawk HP+ for the first few times on the track with my old Mini (R53), but quickly moved to Carbotechs for track days. I do the same now with my M coupe; it's relatively easy to swap pads on track days.

As you become more proficient on the track, you'll likely be harder on your pads. Eventually the Hawks just won't do the trick.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Yep, exactly as I expected. However, every instructor that drove my car had NO complaints. They shouldn't have performed the way they did, but they did. Mind you the car was lighter than the normal e36 with them and not really that quick.

Note that I did not recommend the HP+, rather to take a look at their lineup. They are affordable and they perform well.

Again, the problem with the HP+ is that they work wonderfully right up to a certain point. When you exceed that point, you have no brakes with little to no warning. Many folks won't hit that, which is why you have so many people saying "oh yes, the HP+ is totally fine on track." For the ones that do, it's pretty scary.

As for the rest of the Hawk lineup, my experience has been that they don't work all that well, they are hard as hell on rotors, and they don't really last. (DTC70s nearly shattered brand new rotors and only lasted six sessions, HT14s and HT10s didn't last long and put quite a lot of wear on the rotors.) In terms of brake pad $ per track day, PFCs have been so far and away the clear winner for me, it's just not funny. They cost more, but they a) work better and b) last so much longer that they are cheaper in the end.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

The problem with the HP+ is that they give you the braking torque of track pads until they stop working, at which point they go from trying to pull out your eyeballs to nothing at all. And they stop working at a temperature range that is just not quite high enough for track use.

I love them because they are the absolute ultimate street/autox pad. There is nothing that comes even close if you are willing to accept some brake squeal (brake goop is mandatory with them) and don't mind that they dust a fair bit. Understanding their limits is key.

Instructor on track for 25 minutes? Plus they were driving your car so they may have not been driving it very hard.
I think it depends how aggressive you are on brakes.

I've driven with good street pads on track because I packed the wrong pads with me.
I had to change my braking style by braking earlier and longer. I didn't think they were going to last the day.
You just can't slow down from 120 to 50 consistently with confidence on street pads

Everyone has their favorite track pads, but ask anyone. Street pads don't cut it on the track.
And if they say they do, they've never used track pads.

[ACG]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. I probably should have mentioned, although you likely figured it out, that in the two NCC schools I was in D Group for the weekend; after that I did a one-day event on Veterans' Day, at which time I felt I was really improving with experience and when I experienced my brakes fading.

That said, I'm clearly not at the driving level and therefore not as hard on brakes as a Club racer like Nick325xiT 5spd (maybe I'll be in C Group this year, maybe not). I feel it's time to move beyond street pads but maybe not to a full race pad. I'll check more into the PFBs and Carbotechs.

[1996 328ti]

Well fade could easily be brake fluid. I found the Jefferson to be a bit tougher on brakes for me because of the short straights.
I can't go more than 2 1/2 weekends on brake fluid before noticing some fade.
I generally bleed brake fluid before each weekend if at all possible.

[woodym3]

Porterfield R4. They, along with many other brands, are available here: http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/

[wduvall]

I use Performance Friction Z-Rated pads for both year round street use and track use. I lengthen my braking zones after the long straights, the main straight on the main track for instance, to build up less heat so I don't overheat the pads. Come and find me at the next school and I'll give you a ride if you like.

I buy my pads through: http://store.bimmerworld.com/perform...s-p721c29.aspx