03/19/2011 - Autocross @ Regency Furniture Stadium

[ElGordoFeroz]

I knew I wasn't going to place at all =\. Hopefully fewer people wills how up as the season goes on

[Claff]

What does OUT mean?

[civicexracer]

I feel there was nothing wrong with the finish. I think the problem was no one hit the brake until the finish. Its the driver's responsibility to stop the car not the course designer's.

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I don't think the problem is people hitting the brakes AT the finish or just barely after. The course does not end before the finish timing lights, it ends AT the finish timing lights. This means if you are at all striving for that extra .001 second to win, you're going to be on the gas until you cross that timing light. I fully believe a big reason I dropped just over .2 seconds off on my last run from the previous is because I held the gas until I crossed the line. First run I over shot it and had to use reverse, partially because I had no idea a wall was put up. Then the runs after I found myself lifting or braking before I crossed the finish line. It wasn't until my last run which I told myself to stay on it and I had to pump the hell out of my brakes to stop on time. Even still I had to use reverse so I wouldn't DNF by knocking a cone over making the turn around. Which is another thing, the turn around it self is fine, but it shouldn't be though as extra stopping room. After all I think most of us know stopping in a straight line is optimal. Forcing cars into reverse when there is another car coming up behind them a few seconds later is NOT a good thing. I know you'll say "well then don't go in reverse", well then, don't DNF people for knocking a cone over after they stop lol. You can say what you want about SCCA and their rules, it doesn't really matter, but their key thing is safety(which is why they go as far as appointing safety stuarts for every event). No matter what club it is, SCCA, BMW, etc... safety shouldn't be overlooked or second guessed.

It is definitely the responsibility of the driver to stop the car, but it is the design of the course that is suppose to allow enough room for a safe, controlled stop. All of the crazy brake locking and tire smoke should be done out ON course, not after the finish.

I know some people had no issues with braking, but either they did not maintain as high of a speed as others, they lifted and braked before the timing lights or their cars had better brakes/ABS/wider stickier tires/etc... Just because some made it without problems, doesn't necessarily make it OK. Clearly many others had issues and I know many of them are exceptional drivers with well modified cars/brakes.

I had issues with the stop box the entire day. I definitely wasn't flying through the finish with my ~100whp car lol. With no ABS, Hawk HP+ pads, 2230lbs car, stiff ass springs up front and RE-11's I was still really fighting to stop the car on time. Personally, I really really do not like flat spotting my tires and scrubbing rubber off for no reason at all... I think others will agree. Here's what Shane said to me "AJ... Even Luster's STI with HP Plus almost hit the box. That stopping area was kinda tight considering the speed some cars can get in that distance." I rode in Stu's GT3 on his first run. He BARELY stopped on time, and that's a damn GT3 with a good driver and lightly modified. I see a DNF next to one of his runs, I am going to assume it's because he may have overshot the stop box because I watched all his runs and was talking to him after every run and he never said anything about going off course. That's a bit scary if that car can't stop on time..

I love Sam's courses and to you Sam, I really hope you don't take serious offense to me saying this, but I've had issues with the stop boxes at a lot of the BMW events. It's really my only problem with the course designs. At this past weekends particular event, moving the timing lights back a few measly yards could have avoided this whole conflict while still preserving the fun of the course. I know this could have been the case at numerous other events aswell. Just pushing the stop line back a bit would not have hurt anything.

I hope I don't get anyone too upset, that's far from my intentions. It's just my .02.

[Bob]

What does OUT mean?

Haven't heard "out" since my bracket drag racing days, you couldn't go faster than the bracket you picked, scary braking in the traps at 100mph with drum brakes and bias tires.

[Petrovich]

where do we send our corrections? Peter Beliakov bmw 325ci is in S3 class

[Luda]

where do we send our corrections? Peter Beliakov bmw 325ci is in S3 class

here\\

[noelleslie]

Here's another video. Camera mount loose. Sorry.

Sam, as always, I feel that you are a course Ar-teest !! Magnifique!!

Thanks!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi7EeTSP18k

[towerymt]

We're not the SCCA. Not saying you're wrong, but I'm very vocal stating the SCCA has their heads up their asses on some things.

The BMWCCA operations manual (which is publicly available) would be a much better resource to quote.

Indeed it is publicly available for all to read. From the BMW CCA operations manual (paraphrases and/or quotes SCCA solo manual that I quoted):

[noelleslie]

. . . You can say what you want about SCCA and their rules, it doesn't really matter, but their key thing is safety (which is why they go as far as appointing safety stewards for every event). No matter what club it is, SCCA, BMW, etc... safety shouldn't be overlooked or second guessed.

It is definitely the responsibility of the driver to stop the car, but it is the design of the course that is suppose to allow enough room for a safe, controlled stop. All of the crazy brake locking and tire smoke should be done out ON course, not after the finish. . .

I strongly agree with AJ, but also think the course was a great design. Perhaps if the timing light had been moved forward 100 feet everyone would have been happy?

Also, I agree with Jonathan that SCCA rules are not binding on BMW, but I disagree that we should discredit them as "buttheads."

Negligence is basically the use the degree of reasonable care that a normal "reasonable person" would perform. I wouldn't say that the stop box was necessarily negligent, but because our goal is the highest degree of safety, I think it is negligent to a degree if we were to broadly dismiss the customs and/or practices of other experienced groups such as SCCA. In my view, their experience has been formed as a result of past accidents, and that their rules reflect a wealth of time, energy, and resources directed at safety. I'm saying that we should adopt SCCA procedures at all -- just that we should at least consider which of their rules (if any) would be appropriate for incorporation into our operation.

I think BMW is a very safe group, and I can specifically cite several instances of NCC staff conducting their safety chores during this event. Even the comments in this thread are indicative of our safety culture. Good job guys. Our diversity of opinion is among our strengths.

[mcoupemindy]

I strongly agree with AJ, but also think the course was a great design. Perhaps if the timing light had been moved forward 100 feet everyone would have been happy?

Also, I agree with Jonathan that SCCA rules are not binding on BMW, but I disagree that we should discredit them as "buttheads."

Negligence is basically the use the degree of reasonable care that a normal "reasonable person" would perform. I wouldn't say that the stop box was necessarily negligent, but because our goal is the highest degree of safety, I think it is negligent to a degree if we were to broadly dismiss the customs and/or practices of other experienced groups such as SCCA. In my view, their experience has been formed as a result of past accidents, and that their rules reflect a wealth of time, energy, and resources directed at safety. I'm saying that we should adopt SCCA procedures at all -- just that we should at least consider which of their rules (if any) would be appropriate for incorporation into our operation.

I think BMW is a very safe group, and I can specifically cite several instances of NCC staff conducting their safety chores during this event. Even the comments in this thread are indicative of our safety culture. Good job guys. Our diversity of opinion is among our strengths.

Notice that I never said that the SCCA was wrong on this ... rather I was pointing to say that to establish a baseline, you'll need to use the correct ruleset specific to the club. (e.g. If you go to Germany, don't expect the laws to be the same as the United States. Sure, the basic principles are the same, but differences may exist.) This is kind of the same principle of some clubs allowing convertibles during HPDE's and some excluding them. My distaste for the SCCA ruleset comes from classing, NOT safety regulations.

Unless you've designed courses before, it's much harder to "get it right" than you think. We have great course designers, but, as with anything, there's always room for improvement. It's not optimal to have a stop box at course end, but even if there was an overshoot of the finish, there was significant run off room after. It's always a touchy subject on the entrance speed of the finish. Putting an element to slow the finish will keep speed down, but will also upset balance making it easier for spins into the finish.

The autocross committee does a great job with significant emphasis on safety - this is important and appreciated - I'm very glad that this years organizers are doing the right thing! Saying that, it is each participant's right (and duty) to do the following:

a.) Assess the safety of the course and report any concerns to the chairman. Chances are that if you have a concern, someone else does also. Sometimes it takes a third, fourth, fifth set of eyes to spot problems;
b.) Make the decision to participate ONLY if the course meets your personal safety requirements. There is always risk in motorsports; autocross is no exception. There's probably a greater risk that you'd get in an accident on the way to / from an event, but there's always "risk".

FWIW, I'm probably one of the few that come to our NCC events that was trained to be an SCCA Safety Steward.

Best,

Jonathan

[gradon]

I loved the course and had a great day--thanks to all. The stop box was fine--know your vehicle. I did laugh a bit the first time the gt3 blasted through it and punted a cone, but glad he was pushing it(as I would if it was mine--one of the few cars on my short list). The 3.73 upgrade was perfect for this course(I'll trade highway mpgs for low rpm response anyday). Anyhow, continue to do what you do and maybe I'll have a good 1st experience at Ole D.

[patred]

Not that I care because I won my class and I was just there to see if my new Megasquirt works, but why was I marked "DNF" on my last two runs. AFAIK, I ran through the course exactly like the first three runs. AM session, X1, '82 Camaro #195.

(It will be a fun debate if it's for why I think it is. )

Pat

[Luda]

Not that I care because I won my class and I was just there to see if my new Megasquirt works, but why was I marked "DNF" on my last two runs. AFAIK, I ran through the course exactly like the first three runs. AM session, X1, '82 Camaro #195.

(It will be a fun debate if it's for why I think it is. )

Pat

I personally don't remember where you dnf'd since I was running around during your runs, but the run I did see was awesome, I had no idea a third Gen f body could be run that smoothly, so well done!

[woodym3]

Pat, I was working out on the course during your runs. It appeared from my station that you were unable to stop after the finish before going through the wall at the end. Apparently you were able to do this without hitting any cones because they were spaced too far apart. (I did the same thing on one of my runs). Anyway there was radio chatter about whether this should be considered DNF or not. I thought I heard someone say after your third run that someone was going to talk to you about this. I guess you continued to do it. Certainly this is a grey area, and in my opinion if you don't hit a cone, no DNF should be assessed. I am confident that next time (1) the finish area will be longer (2) the cones marking the finish area will be spaced closer together. Congrats on your win in that big vintage boat.
Woody

[Bob]

Notice that I never said that the SCCA was wrong on this ... rather I was pointing to say that to establish a baseline, you'll need to use the correct ruleset specific to the club. (e.g. If you go to Germany, don't expect the laws to be the same as the United States. Sure, the basic principles are the same, but differences may exist.) This is kind of the same principle of some clubs allowing convertibles during HPDE's and some excluding them. My distaste for the SCCA ruleset comes from classing, NOT safety regulations.

Unless you've designed courses before, it's much harder to "get it right" than you think. We have great course designers, but, as with anything, there's always room for improvement. It's not optimal to have a stop box at course end, but even if there was an overshoot of the finish, there was significant run off room after. It's always a touchy subject on the entrance speed of the finish. Putting an element to slow the finish will keep speed down, but will also upset balance making it easier for spins into the finish.

The autocross committee does a great job with significant emphasis on safety - this is important and appreciated - I'm very glad that this years organizers are doing the right thing! Saying that, it is each participant's right (and duty) to do the following:

a.) Assess the safety of the course and report any concerns to the chairman. Chances are that if you have a concern, someone else does also. Sometimes it takes a third, fourth, fifth set of eyes to spot problems;
b.) Make the decision to participate ONLY if the course meets your personal safety requirements. There is always risk in motorsports; autocross is no exception. There's probably a greater risk that you'd get in an accident on the way to / from an event, but there's always "risk".

FWIW, I'm probably one of the few that come to our NCC events that was trained to be an SCCA Safety Steward.

Best,

Jonathan

If, in fact, a greater risk is had during the drive to and from the event, why is my helmet on the floor during the greatest risk driving segment of my day?! DUH!