03/19/2011 - Autocross @ Regency Furniture Stadium

[mcoupemindy]

I was actually concerned with all the development around the stadium. I'd imagine a few years from now after those houses are sold and we have more people living around the stadium we may have difficulty getting that lot for autocross. Well, for now we can enjoy it while it lasts...

Two more years at the max is my call ...

[Highflyr777]

I agree that the course was lots of fun. My only beef was also with the finish. I believe the finish chute should have been longer. My car has good brakes and sticky tires, and I still had trouble bringing it to a stop or near-stop within the length of the chute. Perhaps moving the finish line 10 feet earlier would have solved this problem.

Thanks for designing such a fun course.

I feel there was nothing wrong with the finish. I think the problem was no one hit the brake until the finish. Its the driver's responsibility to stop the car not the course designer's.

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[mcoupemindy]

I feel there was nothing wrong with the finish. I think the problem was no one hit the brake until the finish. Its the driver's responsibility to stop the car not the course designer's.

... That's not the right attitude to have ...

That said, if I could stop my car in that box (with just street tires), there's no excuse for anyone else not to be able to stop. I was entering >65 mph and had no problems scrubbing the speed without DNF'ing. Was it tight? Yep. Was it safe? Yep.

[95Maxrider]

I feel there was nothing wrong with the finish. I think the problem was no one hit the brake until the finish. Its the driver's responsibility to stop the car not the course designer's.

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I'm tempted to agree; my car weighs a good deal and my tires aren't that sticky and I didn't have a problem stopping in time. IIRC I wasn't even getting on the brakes until the finish and I was able to stop pretty easily. Maybe my car is too slow for this to be an issue.....

[adam]

Responsibility should fall to both course designer and driver.

From the standpoint of the course designer... was it safe, enough runoff room etc... IMO yes.
From the standpoint of a driver... can I stay on the gas through the timing lights or not? This should be no different than 'that slalom was too tight for me so I had to slow down'. You have to do what your car allows for given the circumstances.

[drq2q]

I'm tempted to agree; my car weighs a good deal and my tires aren't that sticky and I didn't have a problem stopping in time. IIRC I wasn't even getting on the brakes until the finish and I was able to stop pretty easily. Maybe my car is too slow for this to be an issue.....

I worked the station by the stop box. About 40-50% of the drivers hit the brakes after, or just before, the REAR wheels cleared the timer, not the front wheels. The length of the car makes a big diff in that short a box.

[hepcatz]

I agree the box was safe & also that it is both the designer & driver to provide a safe experience (no driver is going to brake before the timing equipment). I also noticed during course walk that the stop box was altered to be more safely away from the pole in the back right corner so kudos for that. I'm no James D. or AJ but I had no problem stopping with room to spare in the stop box.

[towerymt]

I feel there was nothing wrong with the finish. I think the problem was no one hit the brake until the finish. Its the driver's responsibility to stop the car not the course designer's.

OK. Is there a safety steward who reviews the course design once it's setup? What guidelines are followed, and who has final approval of a course? What was the distance from the finish line to the solid barrier directly in front of the car after it crossed the finish line? There was room for improvement, wouldn't you agree?

That was a Harry Grove type finish. I expect to have to brake before the timing lights there. But not here, the lot is plenty large to have room to safely bring the car down to walking speed. The tire tracks after the finish tell the story. Having a car back up towards the finish line to make the turn around can be avoided, too.

I'm trying to offer constructive criticism and improve future course designs.

2.2.J from the 2009 SCCA Solo rule book:
"Extreme care shall be taken in the location of the start, finish,
staging, and timing areas. The timers and staging area must be
placed well clear of the course in a safe area. The finish section
and course exit should be clearly and carefully defined to safely
restrict speeds. It is not recommended that competing cars be
required to come to a complete stop immediately following the
finish line. It is preferred that cars be required to slow to a walking
speed within a controlled area before returning to the grid or
paddock areas. A complete stop should be required only when
unusual site conditions exist. In all cases, a sufficient distance
past the finish line must be available to safely slow or halt any
competing car from the highest possible speed attainable at the
finish without locking brakes or wild maneuvering. It is recommended
that an official be assigned to control the finish area.
Particular care must be exercised in the finish area to keep it free
from hazard to participants and non-participants."

Flat out at high speed into a short finish box is bad juju. Try a curve next time. That's all I'm saying.

[mcoupemindy]

OK. Is there a safety steward who reviews the course design once it's setup? What guidelines are followed, and who has final approval of a course? What was the distance from the finish line to the solid barrier directly in front of the car after it crossed the finish line? There was room for improvement, wouldn't you agree?

That was a Harry Grove type finish. I expect to have to brake before the timing lights there. But not here, the lot is plenty large to have room to safely bring the car down to walking speed. The tire tracks after the finish tell the story. Having a car back up towards the finish line to make the turn around can be avoided, too.

I'm trying to offer constructive criticism and improve future course designs.

2.2.J from the 2009 SCCA Solo rule book:
"Extreme care shall be taken in the location of the start, finish,
staging, and timing areas. The timers and staging area must be
placed well clear of the course in a safe area. The finish section
and course exit should be clearly and carefully defined to safely
restrict speeds. It is not recommended that competing cars be
required to come to a complete stop immediately following the
finish line. It is preferred that cars be required to slow to a walking
speed within a controlled area before returning to the grid or
paddock areas. A complete stop should be required only when
unusual site conditions exist. In all cases, a sufficient distance
past the finish line must be available to safely slow or halt any
competing car from the highest possible speed attainable at the
finish without locking brakes or wild maneuvering. It is recommended
that an official be assigned to control the finish area.
Particular care must be exercised in the finish area to keep it free
from hazard to participants and non-participants."

Flat out at high speed into a short finish box is bad juju. Try a curve next time. That's all I'm saying.

We're not the SCCA. Not saying you're wrong, but I'm very vocal stating the SCCA has their heads up their asses on some things.

The BMWCCA operations manual (which is publicly available) would be a much better resource to quote.

[irish44j]

I feel there was nothing wrong with the finish. I think the problem was no one hit the brake until the finish. Its the driver's responsibility to stop the car not the course designer's.

I'm going to have to agree, for what it's worth. While the high-speed kink before the finish *could* induce some snap oversteer in certain cars (as I saw happen specifically with an S2000, which seem to lift oversteer pretty easily), I also believe it's the driver's responsibility to know their car. I didn't see anything that was inherently treacherous about the stop box, nor did I have any issues stopping in plenty of time. It looked a bit scary when walking the course, but in the car it wasn't a problem.

That said, were I in my 1970 GT6 I'd have probably be coming through there sideways with 4 wheels locked up...so I can also see where some of the modified guys (like the turbobricks) or cars with older/mediocre braking systems are coming from.

[SamB325es]

I guess I should weigh in, although I am not a big fan of discussing course design, it is the same for everyone, so it is what it is...

Yes the box was a bit short, i blew it twice...

I think it was safe as well. if you started to spin at the kink the only thing at risk would be the timing lights. not great, but no course design will be perfect.

I had the box much more open when i set-up but it was confusing for some how to exit so it was shortened...once it was changed it had to stay.

Thanks for the constructive crit. it is noted, and hopefully we get closer to the elusive perfect course next time.

[Luda]

http://forum.nccbmwcca.org/downloads...id=37&act=down

Results hath been posted

[irish44j]

well, considering who was there I can be happy with top half of X2.......

[Biggins]

Thanks for getting the results so quickly! It looks like I have some learning to do with the R's.

As far as the finish debate, it was fine. I was a little too hot going into finish on my first run but still had plenty of room. There were probably fewer DNFs due to hitting a finish cone in this event than many previous ones. Adam and I both were slightly sideways going into finish a time or two and had plenty of space.

[hepcatz]

I'm quite pleased with my 6th place finish in x4, specially being the first event of the year & having some great talent in the x4 group. Thanks for getting the results up so fast.