Autocross Rules Clarification for 2005

[Doby]

Hi Mr Newbie! We're sorry that you installed the Koni SA's because they were cheaper and ride better then the Bilsteins, but you have to run in the prep class and get slaughtered. Welcome to NCC Autox though. Have fun.

Allow SA's or do not allow aftermarket shocks at all. That's the fair thing to do.

[jkuper]

How about this:

Showroom class may run any size wheel, any non-R tire, any shifter, any brake pad, any brand of shock absorber, any air filter or cat-back exhaust system.

[Pete]

How about this:

Showroom class may run any size wheel, any non-R tire, any shifter, any brake pad, any brand of shock absorber, any air filter or cat-back exhaust system.

No

[AlfaEric]

Hi Mr Newbie! We're sorry that you installed the Koni SA's because they were cheaper and ride better then the Bilsteins, but you have to run in the prep class and get slaughtered. Welcome to NCC Autox though. Have fun.

Allow SA's or do not allow aftermarket shocks at all. That's the fair thing to do.

If people are modifying their car to the limit of the rules within the showroom class then a newbie will be "slaughtered" anyway. They should be concentrating on learning car control and having fun anyway.

The only reason Bilstein HD's would be allowed over SA's is to simplify the rules. We do not want to specify brands and models that can and cannot be used. I personally don't feel that Bilstein HD's go with the spirit of the rules but we are leaving that up to the individual. We just wanted to allow people to replace their worn shocks yet we needed to provide a clearly defined limit.

---Eric

[NoSoup4U]

"Dyno proven"?? Are you kidding me? The CAI/Exhausts are probably the largest gray area in terms of any type of gains. Who is to say that Ireland Engineering exhaust for an E30 is any better than Midas built one?

You need me to read your contracts from now on. You are not reading closely and reading something in there that is not ...

I said "dyno-proven" meaning there is verifiable evidence that it provides some gain. I am not talking about the merit of the claims,e.g, if it makes power or not, -- just the fact that it "is" claimed that the item provides a performance enhancement.

[jkuper]

The rules are simplified with my post above, but you guys want to be complicated and dictate brands and such. We want to attract new people who have never autocrossed before and put a new muffler or intake in their car because it sounds/looks better or perhaps even purchased their car that way. So, what now, let's stick them in prepared class, where they won't do as well and perhaps be embarrassed, lose interest, etc? That's an excellent idea!

[jkuper]

You need me to read your contracts from now on. You are not reading closely and reading something in there that is not ...

I said "dyno-proven" meaning there is verifiable evidence that it provides some gain. I am not talking about the merit of the claims,e.g, if it makes power or not, -- just the fact that it "is" claimed that the item provides a performance enhancement.

Are we really going to make a 5-10hp CLAIMED gain or 10lb weight loss important for classing structure?

BTW, Ireland Engineering exhaust does not claim any performance gains. I was put into prepared class for having it on the car last year, not that I cared too much about it at that point.

Edited

[Doby]

No aftermarket shocks in stock class. That's the only fair way, but do what you want. I'm not one to say that I don't care about the class because it's obvious what class I'm. I care about the program, and the growth of it. Allowing Bilsteins seems to be from a hiden agenda or something...

[NoSoup4U]

Yes, you shouldn't have said anything. These rules don't even effect you. Stop looking for loop-holes.
---Eric

C'mon, you said I could replace any OEM part with a non-OEM part that does not enhance performance.

My dogs pooped on my entire interior, including carpets, and miraculously, they even managed to get some on the rear deck shelf lid -- I don't want to replace it with a non-OEM part and I cannot afford the OEM part. Thus, I should be allowed to run in stock

I get what you guys are saying though. I'm just being difficult because I KNOW how Pete and Eric are reacting behind their keyboards right now. ....

[AlfaEric]

You need me to read your contracts from now on. You are not reading closely and reading something in there that is not ...

I said "dyno-proven" meaning there is verifiable evidence that it provides some gain. I am not talking about the merit of the claims,e.g, if it makes power or not, -- just the fact that it "is" claimed that the item provides a performance enhancement.

Try to think of how many aftermarket parts don't claim a performance enhancement. Most are going to claim some type of improvement. It helps sales. I don't want people bringing printouts of ads or packaging to prove something isn't a performance enhancement.

---Eric

[NoSoup4U]

Are we really going to make a 5-10hp CLAIMED gain or 10lb weight loss important for classing structure?

BTW, Ireland Engineering exhaust does not claim any performance gains. I was put into prepared class for having it on the car last year, not that I cared too much about it at that point.

Edited

Here's my erudited answer: BAH!!

I get what you are saying

[Pete]

The rules are simplified with my post above, but you guys want to be complicated and dictate brands and such. We want to attract new people who have never autocrossed before and put a new muffler or intake in their car because it sounds/looks better or perhaps even purchased their car that way. So, what now, let's stick them in prepared class, where they won't do as well and perhaps be embarrassed, lose interest, etc? That's an excellent idea!

That's what it was last year. Those people still would have gone into Prepared.

Pete

[AlfaEric]

No aftermarket shocks in stock class. That's the only fair way, but do what you want. I'm not one to say that I don't care about the class because it's obvious what class I'm. I care about the program, and the growth of it. Allowing Bilsteins seems to be from a hiden agenda or something...

To some extent I agree with you about not allowing Bilsteins. Please read my previous response:

The only reason Bilstein HD's would be allowed over SA's is to simplify the rules. We do not want to specify brands and models that can and cannot be used. I personally don't feel that Bilstein HD's go with the spirit of the rules but we are leaving that up to the individual. We just wanted to allow people to replace their worn shocks yet we needed to provide a clearly defined limit.

We had to leave some flexibility within the showroom class or it would be empty.

Maybe I'm missing something with the hidden agenda comment but I find your insinuations insulting. I have tried to respond to every question/issue that has been brought to my attention openly. If you have a problem please contact Pete or me personally or post exactly what you have on your mind. There is no hidden agenda. We have posted our reasons behind the clarifications.

I realize that you have the best intentions for program in mind and I appreciate that. If we have not made our intentions clear in written form, I appologize and would be more than willing to discuss it with you over the phone. If you posted it as a joke to irritate me (as James has been) well, then you got me.

---Eric

[Doby]

Since neither you or Pete would be running in that class, why would you have an agenda, so therefore that comment was not abou you. You're a smart cookie, you should have known that.

Ok, answer these scenarios/questions for me.

You have no idea that you will want to autox in the future, but your shocks are on their way out. You look around and find out that Koni SA's are cheaper then Bilsteins, AND they ride better then Bilsteins. What would you buy? Now jump ahead to showing up for an NCC autox. How would you feel to know that you are now bumped up in a class with much faster cars/driver because you bought the less expensive/better riding shocks? I'd be a little upset. While the person should not be worried about competition, it's human nature. And anyone coming out to a timed event is going to be competitive.

Bilstein/SA or nothing is the ONLY fair route. "FAIR" is the key term in this thread.

[jkuper]

I have tried to respond to every question/issue that has been brought to my attention openly. If you have a problem please contact Pete or me personally or post exactly what you have on your mind. There is no hidden agenda. We have posted our reasons behind the clarifications.

---Eric

No

Oh, yes, this was "openly". Whatever you guys want to do. I stated my reasons behind being flexible in the showroom class and attracting new people. I know what class I fall in.