10/23/2010 - Autocross Points Event #8

[flohtingPoint]

My stock tires are Dunlop s2020's and they have held up great. Irish is right though, I'm thinking of running SCCA Street Tuned, not street prepared. My car is mostly stock, except for the short ram intake. I really want to talk to an SCCA guy about classing and allowed mods.

(opinions on the Kumho Ecsta XS's?)

I'd go stock if I were you. Just need some shocks, talk to some MS3 folks about what front sway to run and get some r-comps on a spare set of wheels in your stock size. Less cost than building a Street Touring car. Might have to replace the stock air box, not sure on that one, but that shouldn't be a big deal.

an inexperienced driver can get in some trouble with the cornering speeds that rcomps allow and the relatively quick breakaway at the limit...

Not likely Brother. People who are inexperienced with r-comps usually underdrive the hell out of them, rarely pushing as hard as they can/should. Lets say he find the limit and breaks it. Just a spin and a bad time on that pass will result.

[Claff]

(opinions on the Kumho Ecsta XS's?)

We run XS on the Mazdaspeed. I have a hard time keeping the back of the MSM planted when I get on the gas. The RE-11s on my white car hook up far better, though I have to admit that the MSM and my '90 are set up very differently suspension-wise.

[irish44j]

I'd go stock if I were you. Just need some shocks, talk to some MS3 folks about what front sway to run and get some r-comps on a spare set of wheels in your stock size. Less cost than building a Street Touring car. Might have to replace the stock air box, not sure on that one, but that shouldn't be a big deal.

IDK...we could argue all day about what class he should shoot for, but it really all comes down to what his priorities for the car are (do you want it to be a badass autocross machine, or do you want it to be a badass daily driver?), what his budget is (no clue), and so on...

I see your POV though...Having run on r-comps before myself it's hard to go back to street tires or understand why someone would want to run on them after the adrenaline rush of r-comps. That said, I've run on streets now for 10+ years and really enjoy ST classes better than comp classes personnally...

I guess the choices would be:
1. Go stock class and be happy driving a "stock" car around on a daily basis. Boring in my view, unless your car in stock form has a Ferrari or Porsche or ///M badge on it. And you may still be at the back of the pack.
2. Most of the mods that you'd want to do in a reasonable budget for street driving are probably going to be ST legal. So build your car for the street, but keep ST limits in mind. Enjoy your car every day when driving it, and be happy at the middle of the STU pack at events, while learning to drive your car better, slowing improving the setup and the driver. This is my personal approach.
3. Spend alot of money, mod to the max allowances of STU, make your car possibly less enjoyable for regular driving, and you're still not guaranteed to be a front-runner. Especially with a MS3 or WRX in an STU dominated by STi's and Evos. But if being top dog is your goal, better take a look at whether your car CAN be top dog in its class, whether it be stock or prepared. My car can't, in all likelihood. If that was my goal, I would have gotten an Evo or at least an STi....
4. Do whatever you want to the car, run in whatever class that puts you in (I used to run a freakin Nissan Maxima in EP, so I know about this!), and enjoy autocross wherever you finish. Or go to events that don't use SCCA-style classing (like NCC events, or CDC events, or any number of other car clubs).

You decide what works best for you. I prefer #2 or #4....

because driving a stock WRX (or MS3) with just a bigger front bar and good shocks would be boring as hell on a daily basis, in my opinion.

Not likely Brother. People who are inexperienced with r-comps usually underdrive the hell out of them, rarely pushing as hard as they can/should. Lets say he find the limit and breaks it. Just a spin and a bad time on that pass will result.

lol, my use of words sucks....I didn't mean "trouble" as in "the car will end up in the trees or burst into flames".....I meant it as in the frustration of being inconsistent and perhaps not learning to drive the car to ITS limits, since the r-comps may make it "fast enough" without getting near the car's (or tire's) limits....

[hepcatz]

I totally agree. A driver should develop good habits and skills on streets to their potential before moving on. When I strat thinking about upgrades like that, I have someone skilled & fast drive my car, then I remember where the upgrade is needed first, lol.

...in my opinion I think it's beneficial for new autocrossers to learn to drive first on "street tires" where there is more gradual breakaway before going to r-comps anyways.....an inexperienced driver can get in some trouble with the cornering speeds that rcomps allow and the relatively quick breakaway at the limit...

[flohtingPoint]

I totally agree. A driver should develop good habits and skills on streets to their potential before moving on. When I strat thinking about upgrades like that, I have someone skilled & fast drive my car, then I remember where the upgrade is needed first, lol.

Cant disagree more. Driving on streets is extremely different than driving on r-comps, they're almost two different skill sets. Anyone that saw me driving Dunham's car at the last event could tell that I was heavily struggling (I had to totally unlearn my driving style) and that my braking was WAY off, this is because the braking zones are VERY different. The way you throw a car into the pocket is vastly incomparable. Either way, you're not going to find the full potential of street tires unless your name is Fernando Alonso.

Dont get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for a lot of street tire drivers. Ask James, the first thing I said to him after run 1 at the last event was "You street tire folks are VERY talented to pull off the times you do." Most of my autocrossing friends are in the Street Touring classes and I pick their brains a lot on a ton of things. This whole season Noel and I have been trading information and comments on our driving and I'd like to think it's been as helpful to him as it has for me.

Do you want it to be a badass autocross machine, or do you want it to be a badass daily driver?

Ah, that's where you lost me Josh, I dont think about daily drivers very much. The only time I start the Corolla is if it's going to an event, going to the shop or if it hasn't been started in over a week.

[irish44j]

Most of my autocrossing friends are in the Street Touring classes and I pick their brains a lot on a ton of things.

you never pick my brain lol....

Ah, that's where you lost me Josh, I dont think about daily drivers very much. The only time I start the Corolla is if it's going to an event, going to the shop or if it hasn't been started in over a week.

Trust me, I wish I could be so lucky as to have a DD that I enjoy driving AND a track/autocross-specific vehicle not well suited to DD duties, but setup for motorsports.

Alas, real life and an old Triumph sitting in my garage prevent such a joyous day!

[ElGordoFeroz]

Run the Triumph!

[flohtingPoint]

Run the Triumph!

+1 !

[irish44j]

The triumph will be run someday, but it still has bugs to work out.....and now that I'm working on the subie, I havn't had much time to work on the GT6.

Besides, GT6 is not a good autocross car anyhow...too nose-heavy. Better-configured for open-track work....it's a GT car, ya know.

[irish44j]

I can't wait for this event now....time to test out the new suspension

[civicexracer]

I'll throw in my .02 now since I just took a test and don't really want to study for my other one tomorrow just yet....

I always recommend to everyone starting out to run their car as is, preferably stock, for maybe their first year of autoxing atleast. I feel if you can drive a stock or near stock car fast, once you start modding you'll be even faster. Not only that but you can get a better understanding of how to tune your car to your driving style and ability. I've seen so many people either come in with unnecessary mods, or they end up throwing mods they think will help, but don't really know any better due to inexpereince. In general, you need some sort of baseline from youself as a driver and also from your car.

Unfortunetly the MS3 isn't classed very well being in STU(should be in STX IMO). In STU it just dosen't stand a chance, even locally. In DS, might put up a better fight than in STU but have to get around Mini's and Integra Type R's first...It's up to you. It really comes down to preferences and budget. Stock class would be cheaper(though not necessarily cheap) but may not be quite as fun for you. Vise versa with STU, expensive, but you have a fun, modded car to drive.

As for the R-comp vs Street Tires, a lot depends on car setup and driver. A stock car on R-Comps generally wont have such a sudden breakaway. Whereas on a stiff suspension, tail happy car(like mine) the breakaway is VERY sudden and hard to control(I experienced it running r-comps on my car at an event last year). Street tires are generally a bit more predictable and offer a slower breakaway but again car setup can make a drastic difference. The drivers abilities also come into play. A friend of mine co-drove my car a couple years ago(on my old, less tail happy setup) and he hadn't autoxed in a while. He spun my car neumorus times and thought it was too tail happy. Fact is, he just wasn't used to it and didn't know how to drive it. My car is even more so oversteer prone but I can manage it whereas most others would find it very difficult. It isn't really the tires, my BStones grip just fine, just driving ability. If you ask me, I'd suggest starting out on street tires. Again, if you can be fast in a near stock car, after modifying(or in this case going to r-comps), you'll really be able to push the limits on yourself, the car and tires.

The Kumho XS are a decent tire. My buddy runs them on his RSX-S that I co-drove some of this season. For their price, they are great, but compared to others in it's class, they don't fair so well. For your car( being a bit heavy), the Dunlops or Yokohamas might be the better ones to choose.

Just my input. Now time to study

[irish44j]

guys, when registering on DLB when you go to pay it says "merchant cannot receive payment" or something like that...

[ElGordoFeroz]

A friend of mine got the same error...is paypal down?

[Uber-Goober]

It's not Paypal, it's DLB racing. Considering the beef one would think DLB would be dropped in favor of Motorsportreg.

[mcoupemindy]

You can direct all your inquires directly to the new chairman Doug DuCote (luda). It appears that setting were modified in DLBRacing on the administrative side without notifying the developer of the website. Since my feedback is no longer valuable to the new leadership (if that's what you want to call it), I can't help out anymore. Best regards.