(2010) NCC Autocross Proposed Class Changes

[Reach]

NCC Autocross participants, please see below for a list of proposed changes to the 2009 NCC Autocross class definitions to be effective for the 2010 season.

For a listing of 2009 base rules, please see this link: http://www.nccbmwcca.org/content.php?138-Classes

These changes will be brought up for additional comments before ratification at this Saturday's annual Autocross meeting. All rules are subject to change until ratified by the Autocross board. This set of changes was based on feedback from NCC autocross members, written comments on the year end survey, and comments posted to this message board.

You will notice below several major changes to the autocross program. Significantly for the BMW community, we will be eliminating the under-attended Unlimited class, and instead Unlimited vehicles will be placed into the Modified class of their chassis Group. We have also taken steps to begin to expand the Modified class, allowing more changes especially to forced induction vehicles.

Also of note is the expansion of the Tuner class to allow a wider series of modifications. Cars that are interested in running SCCA Street Touring classes should find themselves at home inside our Tuner classes this year, as we have expanded the allowed modifications to, and well beyond, SCCA ST* allowances. Notably, modifications to differentials, and factory forced induction cars will be allowed in the Tuner classes.

Last but not by any means least, we will be re-structuring our X-Classes for non-BMW competitors at our events. Our participants have spoken, and we have listened. We have revised our X-Classing from 2 to 4 Groups now, with the main differentiator between groups now being engine size, not tire treadwear. It is by no means a perfect system, and is intentionally designed to maintain simplicity while allowing various levels of competition among similarly capable cars. We welcome feedback on our new system from our participants as we progress through the year.




Proposed changes:

====================

#1: Springs (Tuner): - Clarification Only

Current: Spring Changes Permitted Only w/ Stock Location Placement (Note: This Prohibits Rear Coilovers)

Proposed: Spring Changes Permitted Only w/ Stock Location Placement (Note: This Prohibits True Coil-over Configurations in the rear)

====================

#2: Exhaust System:

Proposed new definitions:
Stock: Axle-back (muffler only) replacements permitted. No change to catalysts allowed.
Tuner: Catalysts required on 1980 or newer cars.
Modified: Free

====================

#3: Software (Tuner):

Current: Not Permitted On Forced Induction Vehicles / No Standalone Engine Management.

Proposed: Tuning on stock ECU via chip, flash, or piggyback ECU adapter allowed. No standalone engine management hardware allowed.

====================

#4: Forced Induction:

Current: "Stock" for all 3 classes

Proposed new definitions:
Stock: "Original Equipment Only"
Tuner: "Original Equipment Only"
Modified: "Free"

====================

#5: Strut Bar (Tuner):

Current: "Aftermarket Front Strut Bar Permitted"

Proposed: "Free"

====================

#6: Differential (Tuner):

Current: "Limited Slip Units Permitted / No Quaife Differentials"

Proposed: “Free"

====================

#7: NEW CATEGORY: “Engine Swaps”

Proposed:

Stock – “Not permitted”
Tuner – “Not permitted”
Modified – “Free”

====================

#8: Car Class Group Change:

Proposed: Move E30 ‘eta’ cars from Group 4 to Group 3.

====================

#9: Car Class Group Change:

Proposed: Change wording from “7-Series (6-Cyl) / 7-Series (8-Cyl)” in Group 4 to “7-Series”

====================

#10: X-Class Grouping Change:

Proposed: Re-structure the existing X-Class into more segmented Groups. Allow for the expansion of run categories from 2 to 4, with the primary decider being engine displacement.

The tiered structure would assign people a STARTING X-Group as follows:

Group = Displacement Range in Liters (Numbers rounded to nearest .1)
X1 = 0.1 - 2.0
X2 = 2.1 - 3.2
X3 = 3.3 - 4.6
X4 = 4.7+

After the STARTING group number is determined, add to the Group number as follows:
- Increase 1 Group if engine is rotary
- Increase 1 Group if engine uses forced induction
- Increase 1 Group if R-Compound tires are used. R-Compound is classified by NCC Autocross as any DOT tire with a tread wear rating of less than 140.

Examples:
- Mazda RX-8 (1.3L) would be in X1, but is an X2 car because of its rotary engine. If the same RX-8 competes with R-Compound tires, it moves up 1 more Group to X3.
- A 2010 Subaru WRX STI (2.5L) moves up from X2 to X3 because it has forced induction. Even factory forced induction, such as in this case, causes a car to move up 1 Group.
- X4 is the maximum Group. Example: a 5.0 liter car with R-Compound tires remains in the X4 Group.

[Biggins]

I think they all seem logical, but I have two concerns:

Most competitive SCCA ST classed cars have fixed back seats, and this is still prohibited in Tuner with these proposals.

Also, I'm not sure I understand moving the E30 'eta' cars to Group 3. Looking at this and the past 5 years' results, I think the eta fits in perfectly with the 318s. Sam and I would always trade better times at each event by less than half a second.

Other than those two concerns, it works for me. Even if it stays as it is here, I'm fine with that. I'm doubtful to make the meeting, but I'm going to try.

[Bob]

I've previously posted that I could have ran my m50 E30 in the modified class, since all my mods were allowed, only FI changes things, and I never got around to bolting on the blower, the new class tiering seems logical.

[phenryiv1]

NCC Autocross participants, please see below for a list of proposed changes to the 2009 NCC Autocross class definitions to be effective for the 2010 season.

For a listing of 2009 base rules, please see this link: http://www.nccbmwcca.org/content.php?138-Classes

These changes will be brought up for additional comments before ratification at this Saturday's annual Autocross meeting. All rules are subject to change until ratified by the Autocross board. This set of changes was based on feedback from NCC autocross members, written comments on the year end survey, and comments posted to this message board.

You will notice below several major changes to the autocross program. Significantly for the BMW community, we will be eliminating the under-attended Unlimited class, and instead Unlimited vehicles will be placed into the Modified class of their chassis Group. We have also taken steps to begin to expand the Modified class, allowing more changes especially to forced induction vehicles.

Also of note is the expansion of the Tuner class to allow a wider series of modifications. Cars that are interested in running SCCA Street Touring classes should find themselves at home inside our Tuner classes this year, as we have expanded the allowed modifications to, and well beyond, SCCA ST* allowances. Notably, modifications to differentials, and factory forced induction cars will be allowed in the Tuner classes.

#8: Car Class Group Change:

Proposed: Move E30 ‘eta’ cars from Group 4 to Group 3.

I'm not sure I understand moving the E30 'eta' cars to Group 3. Looking at this and the past 5 years' results, I think the eta fits in perfectly with the 318s. Sam and I would always trade better times at each event by less than half a second.

I am also confused with this...and again, it may be because of the discussions about my top-end swap recommendation. At any rate, you just co-classed an E30 M3 (192 HP) in with an eta (127 HP) E30...

On the heels of our lengthty (and yet unresolved) discussion about the typical Eta bottom/"i" top end E30 swap, I had resigned myself to Modified 4...Now I am more likely to really fight the classification move from "Tuner" to "Modified."

First, my basic eta gets moved to Class 3 right off of the bat, and now its "built" motor (a joke in and of itself) will be in Modified 3, not modified 4. To compound this, FI is now allowed in Modified (a GREAT idea, by the way)...

So my 170 HP (TOPS) e30 is potentially clased in Modified 3 with with an FI'd, M50/52-swapped e30, or an FI'd E36...

That really makes no sense...

If FI is to now be permitted in Modified (again, a good idea), then my recommendation that top-end builds be permitted in Tuner is thus STRONGLY renewed. Bottom-end builds should still land a car in Modified, IMO.

If the goal is to level the playing field, you just sunk the chances that an E30 owner can compete in Tuner OR Modified without a significant build.

Several problems that were raised elsewhere are still unresolved, particularly the full motor swap classing issue (such as any motor that was offered in both a 3- and 5-series being swapped from a 5 versus a 3 to grant advantageous classing).

#7: NEW CATEGORY: “Engine Swaps”

Proposed:

Stock – “Not permitted”

Tuner – “Not permitted”

Modified – “Free”

Not all swaps are equal...An M20B25 swapped into an ETA E30 is the same as an M52 swapped into an E30? Not hardly. The catch-all engine swap rule moving swaps to tuner might be easy to enforce, but it sucks in application. Also, swapping an M50/52 into an E30 or E36 318 is IDENTICAL to the same swap into an E30 or E36 325i/is, but they would be classed in different base groups. Not very "fair," IMO.

I like the old swap rule, with the following adjustment to language:

"When a motor is swapped into a chassis in which that motor was never offered, the recipient vehicle shall be placed in the base class of the DONOR vehicle, with other modifications still having the appropriate impact on classification. In the event that the swapped motor was available in donor vehicles that reside in different classes, the recipient shall be classed in the highest class in which that motor was offered."

Example: E30 with M50 motor swap from an E34 is classed in Group 3, because that motor was available in vehicles in both Group 3 and Group 4.
An E34 receiving a swap of another M50 from an E36 would still be in Group 4, because that motor was originally offered in the E34 (Group 4) chassis.
An E36 325 getting an M52 swap would remain in Group 3, since that was a factory offering.

_______

Under the proposed rules, that E36 325 would automatically move to Modified 3, even if it were otherwise just the equal to a stock E36 328i. The E34 would move to Modified 4, despite being identical to any other M50-equipped E34.

[Reach]

If anyone else has comments on these rule changes or other desired changes to the 2010 NCC Autocross classing rules, this is a good place and time to let us know!

Hope to see everyone Saturday.

-The Reach

[woodym3]

At any rate, you just co-classed an E30 M3 (192 HP) in with an eta (127 HP) E30...

The E30 325 with 2.7-liter eta engine is not the underdog everyone thinks. Most people consider torque more important than horsepower for autocrossing purposes. BMW claimed the eta engine had 170 foot pounds of torque. They also rated the E30 M3 at 170 ft lbs, and the 325i at 164 ft lbs.

[phenryiv1]

NCC Autocross participants, please see below for a list of proposed changes to the 2009 NCC Autocross class definitions to be effective for the 2010 season.

For a listing of 2009 base rules, please see this link: http://www.nccbmwcca.org/content.php?138-Classes

That link seems to have become evil.

[phenryiv1]

The E30 325 with 2.7-liter eta engine is not the underdog everyone thinks. Most people consider torque more important than horsepower for autocrossing purposes. BMW claimed the eta engine had 170 foot pounds of torque. They also rated the E30 M3 at 170 ft lbs, and the 325i at 164 ft lbs.

Okay, you guys have me convinced. After talking to Mike and Woody, the eta car is not at the disadvantage in Group 3 that I had initially perceived.

I withdraw my objection to moving eta cars to Group 3.

I do, however, maintain my position that top-end internal engine modifications are insufficent to justify a move to Modified.

My proposal-

Aftermarked Forced Induction:
Stock- Not Allowed
Tuner- Not Allowed
Modified- Open

Internal Engine Modifications:
Stock- Not Allowed
Tuner- Head/top end modifications permitted
Modified- Open

Also, Intake/Throttle Body modifications should be allowed in Tuner.

Intake:
Stock- Stock Fit Replacement Air Filter Permitted (e.g. K&N Drop-In Filter) OR Aftermarket Cold-air (Before Air Flow Meter)permitted
Tuner- Open/Free
Modified: Open/Free

This is assuming that the top-end modifications are allowed in tuner, as many top-end modifications will require a larger or bored TB to work properly. Additionally, Intake Manifold modificatins are currently "FREE" in Tuner, but in order for most intake manifold modifications to be installed, you typically have to use the corresponding throttle body.

While the M50/52&S50/52 motors can interchange without a TB change, the M20-series motors cannot. Even if my top-end-permitted-in-Tuner bid fails, I still think that TB mods should be allowed in Tuner. It is a pretty basic mod.

The main concept here is that if FI is modified, and that is where the salt line rests, modifications whose impact is far below that (like top-end internal and intake work) should be classed lower- in Tuner. Now, if it should be construed that the threshhold to move to modified is intentionally LOW (and thus anything ABOVE that is lumped into modified) then my perspective would change.

It is all in the intent of the rulemakers.

I see Stock as stock, Tuner as your average bolt-on, DIY enthusiast (who still drives the car on the street regularly), and Modified as your all-out build where the car barely resembles its stock counterparts.

Your view may vary.

[mcoupemindy]

That link seems to have become evil.

Here ya go: http://2009.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?...=41&Itemid=166

We are planning on posting the new rules as soon as they are approved so the old ones were temporarily removed from the current site in the mean time.

[phenryiv1]

Here ya go: http://2009.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?...=41&Itemid=166

We are planning on posting the new rules as soon as they are approved so the old ones were temporarily removed from the current site in the mean time.

Thanks. I updated my post above to be more accurate.

[Reach]

Most competitive SCCA ST classed cars have fixed back seats, and this is still prohibited in Tuner with these proposals.

Chris, both of your concerns are well noted and the 'eta' change is still being looked at. The concern around fixed-back seats remains and there is no provision to move them to Tuner. Proper FIA rated fixed-back racing seats are designed to be used in a car that has a full cage installed. The strength of these seats is much greater than the yield strength of vertical columns in many cars and can pose a deadly hazard in the event of rollover on a street car. OEM seats and aftermarket tilting seats are designed to fail at the pivot point so that in the event of a rollover the occupant is protected correctly and 'submarine' action is still allowed when used with a 3-point seat belt. To properly ensure the total safety in the event of a collision involving a car with fixed-back seats, the driver should be aided by multi-point safety harnesses and rollover protection. These are not in the spirit of the Tuner class, and these modifications, along with fixed-back seats, all belong in and are allowed for in our Modified class.

[joenationwide]

My suggestions:



Showroom (S)
Tuner (T)
Modified (M)

Sway Bars

S- Stock
T- Aftermarket Sway Bars Permitted (Must Use Factory Mounting Points) / Sway Bars May Be Removed
DELETE "MUST USE FACTORY MOUNTING POINTS". IF A 325 USES M3 STRUTS OR VICE VERSA THEY ARE PUT INTO MODIFIED.
M-Free


Seats

S-Stock
T-Fixed Back Seats Prohibited GET RID OF THIS RULE. CHANGE TO "FREE"
M-Free


Weight Saving Interior Modifications

S-Stock
T-Stock MAYBE ADD CLARIFICATION "INTERIOR MUST HAVE ALL SEATS AND CARPET INTACT"
M-Free


Exhaust System

S-Stock CHANGE TO "Catback Replacement Permitted (Note: Stock Catalysts & Stock Headers Must Remain) FI VEHICLES CAT BACK REPLACEMENT ONLY"
T- CHANGE TO "FREE"
M-Free


Flywheel

S-Stock
T-Stock CHANGE TO "FREE"
M-Free

Comments: Tuner should allow all cars that loosely fit spirit of "Street Touring" rules. Do not force car into Modified if it has fixed back seats, aftermarket flywheel, or aftermarket cat or headers. These mods are not of significant value, certainly not enough to force the car to Modified.

Also note about the sway bar mounting locations, the mod is not of significant value. And 325/M3s may get caught because they bought suspensions that fit the other vehicle. No need for this rule either.

The spirit of the rules should only force significant modifications into Modified, such as adding FI, R comps, significant weight reduction, etc.

Let me know if you have questions.

[Reach]

I wrote out a lengthy reply but the forum ate it, I'm sorry. Here's a condensed version:

Thank you for your input. The Sway Bar rule change has merit and we will consider it for inclusion. The Seats rule change will not be considered, it is a safety issue, and I already addressed it above. Just because the SCCA thinks it is acceptable does not mean we do. The proposed modification to the exhaust rule already takes into account what you are trying to say, except that we will require a catalyst for Tuner cars (street legal). The flywheel suggestion also has merit and was overlooked, it will be considered. Thanks again, hope to see you Saturday.

[Claff]

Love the "X" categories. No objections here and I doubt you'll find any elsewhere.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

I wrote out a lengthy reply but the forum ate it, I'm sorry. Here's a condensed version:

Thank you for your input. The Sway Bar rule change has merit and we will consider it for inclusion. The Seats rule change will not be considered, it is a safety issue, and I already addressed it above. Just because the SCCA thinks it is acceptable does not mean we do. The proposed modification to the exhaust rule already takes into account what you are trying to say, except that we will require a catalyst for Tuner cars (street legal). The flywheel suggestion also has merit and was overlooked, it will be considered. Thanks again, hope to see you Saturday.

Prohibiting fixed back seats on the basis of safety concerns is ridiculous. The only way that you can possibly justify that is by banning them unless a cage is installed, otherwise, all it means is that you get fixed back seats if you run sticky tires. And how can it possibly be more acceptable to run more grip on the same car if you actually think that it's unsafe?