01/16/2010 - Annual NCC Autocross Meeting

[mcoupemindy]

Right now, I am a maybe, but hopefully.

Joe

That's excellent Joe! We'd love to have you.

[phenryiv1]

I'd like to still stand by my written comments and recommendations. I'd love to attend, but family obligations are a step above recreation right now. No offense intended.

I know that my one suggestion seems like a pretty simple one (about RSTBs in Tuner), but I think that the motor swap classing issue should be discussed. Maybe the resolution will be to leave it as-is, but I believe that it merits discussion.

Do we have a good resource of classing rules for other chapters?

[woodym3]

Here are some links to the rules used by the national Oktoberfest event and some of the few chapters that have active autocross programs:

1. Oktoberfest groups cars by models and places them in one of three or four levels depending on potential performance of the stock car and the nature of modifications. The result is that some classes have 1 or 2 entries and some like slightly modified E36 M3s have up to 30 entries.
http://www.bmwccaofest.org/autocross-classes.phtml

2. Golden Gate, Windy City, Boston and New Jersey chapters all use a system where each car model is assigned certain points and each modification adds other points. Then the total of your points puts you in one of six or so classes. Someone keeps up with the various models and makes estimates of the effects of different modifications. As examples of the complexity of this system, each ECU chip has different points depending on maker and the model of car to which it is applied. Another example is they list different point factors for 53 various M3 models (USA or Europe, manual or auto transmission, sedan, coupe or convertible, E30, E36, E46, etc). Who wants to adminster that?
http://www.boston-bmwcca.org/EventDe...ification.aspx

3. San Diego chapter uses 7 classes that pretty much say it all: Four cylinder, 6/8/12 cyl stock, 6/8/12 cyl modified, M-car stock, M-car modified, Mini Cooper, X-cars.

4. The New York chapter uses a simplified version of the Boston/NJ point system:
http://www.nybmwcca.org/downloads/20...sification.pdf

5. Lone Star chapter also uses the point system:
http://www.lscbmwcca.org/autocross-rules-base.html

6. Houston also uses the point system:
http://www.dlbracing.com/clubs/houst...a/classes.aspx

[mcoupemindy]

Here are some links to the rules used by the national Oktoberfest event and some of the few chapters that have active autocross programs:

1. Oktoberfest groups cars by models and places them in one of three or four levels depending on potential performance of the stock car and the nature of modifications. The result is that some classes have 1 or 2 entries and some like slightly modified E36 M3s have up to 30 entries.
http://www.bmwccaofest.org/autocross-classes.phtml

2. Golden Gate, Windy City, Boston and New Jersey chapters all use a system where each car model is assigned certain points and each modification adds other points. Then the total of your points puts you in one of six or so classes. Someone keeps up with the various models and makes estimates of the effects of different modifications. As examples of the complexity of this system, each ECU chip has different points depending on maker and the model of car to which it is applied. Another example is they list different point factors for 53 various M3 models (USA or Europe, manual or auto transmission, sedan, coupe or convertible, E30, E36, E46, etc). Who wants to adminster that?
http://www.boston-bmwcca.org/EventDe...ification.aspx

3. San Diego chapter uses 7 classes that pretty much say it all: Four cylinder, 6/8/12 cyl stock, 6/8/12 cyl modified, M-car stock, M-car modified, Mini Cooper, X-cars.

4. The New York chapter uses a simplified version of the Boston/NJ point system:
http://www.nybmwcca.org/downloads/20...sification.pdf

5. Lone Star chapter also uses the point system:
http://www.lscbmwcca.org/autocross-rules-base.html

6. Houston also uses the point system:
http://www.dlbracing.com/clubs/houst...a/classes.aspx

Thanks Woody!

[phenryiv1]

Here are some links to the rules used by the national Oktoberfest event and some of the few chapters that have active autocross programs:

1. Oktoberfest groups cars by models and places them in one of three or four levels depending on potential performance of the stock car and the nature of modifications. The result is that some classes have 1 or 2 entries and some like slightly modified E36 M3s have up to 30 entries.
http://www.bmwccaofest.org/autocross-classes.phtml

2. Golden Gate, Windy City, Boston and New Jersey chapters all use a system where each car model is assigned certain points and each modification adds other points. Then the total of your points puts you in one of six or so classes. Someone keeps up with the various models and makes estimates of the effects of different modifications. As examples of the complexity of this system, each ECU chip has different points depending on maker and the model of car to which it is applied. Another example is they list different point factors for 53 various M3 models (USA or Europe, manual or auto transmission, sedan, coupe or convertible, E30, E36, E46, etc). Who wants to adminster that?
http://www.boston-bmwcca.org/EventDe...ification.aspx

3. San Diego chapter uses 7 classes that pretty much say it all: Four cylinder, 6/8/12 cyl stock, 6/8/12 cyl modified, M-car stock, M-car modified, Mini Cooper, X-cars.

4. The New York chapter uses a simplified version of the Boston/NJ point system:
http://www.nybmwcca.org/downloads/20...sification.pdf

5. Lone Star chapter also uses the point system:
http://www.lscbmwcca.org/autocross-rules-base.html

6. Houston also uses the point system:
http://www.dlbracing.com/clubs/houst...a/classes.aspx

Okay, I now have a greater perspective of how much of a PITA it CAN be to class. I never thought it was easy, but I'd rather see our organizers involved in activities rather than doing long division to assess points.

Several things there look like we might be able to draw them in, but the point system does not look like a win.

As you put it...

Someone keeps up with the various models and makes estimates of the effects of different modifications. Who wants to adminster that?

Thanks again for that post.

[1996 328ti]

Okay, I now have a greater perspective of how much of a PITA it CAN be to class. I never thought it was easy, but I'd rather see our organizers involved in activities rather than doing long division to assess points.

And keep in mind, every chapter figures they have the best system.

I happen to like Sandlapper's system.
There is none. Just drive and have fun.
http://www.sandlapperbmw.org/Autocrosstimes.html

[phenryiv1]

http://www.nybmwcca.org/downloads/20...sification.pdf

The system in the NY chapter seems pretty easy. The Swap penalty (15 points) is pretty significant, but it makes sense. Well, it makes sense unless you use examples like going from an M50NV to an M50 vanos, or from an M20B27 to an M20B25. In those cases where motors are swapped within the same chassis, the NCC rule of classing as the donor makes sense. In swaps across chasis, they could use a rule like they use with the ratio- the rated HP increase (based on factory specs) equates to a particular point increase. On top of that, mods are still assessed.

Also, the ratio penalty is a novel concept, but it does not accomodate for updating/backdating of factory-available ratios, as you would think that it would.

What if all of the cars were classed in the 4 current classes, and mods add points to move from stock to tuner or modified? We could still have 12 (BMW) classes- 4 stock classes, 4 "tuner" classes that are stock plus zero to "X" points, then 4 "modified" classes that are stock plus more than X points.

Using our 4 base/stock classes, the NY point system, and a few minor modifications (as noted above) could be pretty straightforward.

Thoughts? Damn, I wish I could make the meeting.

[Biggins]

I think there needs to be consistency. Keep the exact same classes as last year!

If we're planning to keep catering more to non-BMWs, then my biggest suggestion is to use SCCA PAX to determine the standings for non-BMWs. Those on ST or regular street tires run in XS, those on R-comps only run in XR. Use the PAX to determine the standings.

My only recommended changes in the rules are:
Allow fixed back seats in Tuner
Word the coilover suspension description better

[woodym3]

If we're planning to keep catering more to non-BMWs, then my biggest suggestion is to use SCCA PAX to determine the standings for non-BMWs. Those on ST or regular street tires run in XS, those on R-comps only run in XR. Use the PAX to determine the standings.

So if I show up with my '82 Dodge Conquest with about eight mild modifications who is going to tell me what SCCA class I'm in for PAX purposes?

[Claff]

If we're planning to keep catering more to non-BMWs, then my biggest suggestion is to use SCCA PAX to determine the standings for non-BMWs. Those on ST or regular street tires run in XS, those on R-comps only run in XR. Use the PAX to determine the standings.

I like the free-for-all in the non-BMW classes, though I wouldn't mind seeing stuff like Azenis being considered street tires rather than race tires (I run Azenis as my Miata's every-day tires). But I won't whine if the tire classing doesn't change.

What I'd really like is to see the "X" being broken out further, but only into two more classes. When I ran in October I was up against all kinds of fun stuff, including a Corvette Z06, in XR with the wife's box-stock '93 Miata. Thanks to questionable tire choices on the Corvette's part, and no small amount of rain, I wound up beating it but under other conditions it'd have smacked me around and left me for dead.

I don't know how many "X" cars you get regularly but I'd love to see them separated into "big cars" and "little cars". It could be done simply with a displacement cutoff somewhere around 2.0L, maybe 2.2L, with turbos and superchargers automatically getting bumped into the high displacement class regardless.

I don't have much else to offer, having run with you guys only once, but I hope to run more in 2010 as my schedule allows.

[MazdaSC]

So if I show up with my '82 Dodge Conquest with about eight mild modifications who is going to tell me what SCCA class I'm in for PAX purposes?

I agree with Woody on this, PAX is a nice idea but determining what your PAX multiplier would be pretty difficult unless you are currently running yor car in SCCA classes. I think we would be better served with three non-BMW classes Stock (no mods 220+ tires) Tuner (= BMW tuner allowable mods 140+ tires) Unlimited (any mods any tires). XS, XT and XU classes.

[MazdaSC]

After looking at the rules again just apply the BMW rules for Showroom, Tuner and Modified to the non-BMW's and call them XS, XT and XM.

[woodym3]

I don't know how many "X" cars you get regularly but I'd love to see them separated into "big cars" and "little cars". It could be done simply with a displacement cutoff somewhere around 2.0L, maybe 2.2L, with turbos and superchargers automatically getting bumped into the high displacement class regardless.

Claff,
Nothing will be decided before the meeting, but I suspect you will find something like you're proposing here, but will 4 instead of 2 displacement levels.

[woodym3]

And keep in mind, every chapter figures they have the best system.

I happen to like Sandlapper's system.
There is none. Just drive and have fun.
http://www.sandlapperbmw.org/Autocrosstimes.html

Wow. Good turnout Steven. But how many AX events does Sandlapper Chapter have a year - one? I suspect if they have a regular program the participants will get tired of getting beaten by Renner and demand classes.

[1996 328ti]

Wow. Good turnout Steven. But how many AX events does Sandlapper Chapter have a year - one? I suspect if they have a regular program the participants will get tired of getting beaten by Renner and demand classes.

Only 1 or 2 a year. They are usually short notice.