Finally insight into that silly BMW "free maintenance" that only fools fall for

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Lease only makes sense if you own a company and can write it of. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Lease is not a good deal by the very definition of it and only benefits the dealer. You are throwing money out for a car you should not be driving. High end cars are luxury because they are not necessary. They are not luxury because they have leather and laser cruise and whatever, you can get all of that in a Honda. That being said most un-necessary things will depreciate faster than items that are needed.

In my humble opinion, I believe only way I can afford a car is if I am able to let go of no more than 30% of my available cash, not investment etc...but cash in bank. Otherwise I should be riding in a 1990 Civic or something like that...

What I am saying is that there has been a trend with the manufactures to move vehicles to those who cannot afford their cars by the way of leases...so if a person can afford a cheap car but chooses to lease a more expensive one, or "NEEDS" a new car every two years, they are not in fact an idiot but a financial degenerate. These same people have caused the current situation of "free maintenance" cause they can't do math. When I talk about a person not being able to afford it I am not talking about a person that works at McDonalds, but anyone who is not in a good financial position. They are plenty of people with high incomes and still don't have a pot to piss in. I certainly know plenty of docs and lawyers who earn big dollars, live in mansions and are 2-3 mil in debt...

I understand that the typical BMW driver does not want to worry about maintenance, but all I want, is to be able to buy a new car and take care of my own affairs...which is no longer a possibility without paying extra for the "free stuff"...

*shrug* Your affordability metrics are fine. Excessive, but fine.

You are absolutely flat our WRONG about leasing, though. While you are correct that leasing has been used to move cars off the lot to people who probably really can't rationally afford them, that does not mean that it's not a useful tool.

Let's take a few examples here:
Buy a car for cash. $48,907 out the door.
5- year loan. $56,730.56 at 6%
3 year lease. $20,442.24 with $30,948.75 residual.

The example I used was the 335i that my Mom will return when the weather clears Actual purchase price out the door, actual lease deal. How exactly is that such a bad deal? The only downside is really that the residual is substantially higher than the market value of the car right now, which would be annoying if she decided to keep it.

I get that you would rather deal with your own maintenance. I'm not a huge fan of the "free" maintenance, either, as far as MY car is concerned. Net, net, though, it's a useful marketing tool for BMW, and it has no downside for 99% of the buyers. And really, do you actually believe that BMW pays anything like the thousand dollars a typical dealer charges for a single axle brake job?

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Nick, I was just generalizing on the whole debt/loan/freebies dialog, you never know what you saved or overpaid, since you can't prove what the oppsite result might have been. Its kinda like the oil change zealots, nobody knows if it saved the engine unless all the same engines blew up with less service.

*shrug* At best, you'd save some fraction of what BMW charges to extend the maintenance program if they backed it out of the initial purchase price of the car. Since they would pull it out at their cost, you really aren't talking about all that much.

[Biggins]

I'm with Nick on his leasing argument. It's a much better deal to lease a BMW for three or so years and decide to buy then, or just trade it in for a newer lease and repeat. I really do not see a downside and highly doubt I would buy a new car. Also, I feel like it is not that hard to find people to take over your lease if you really need out of it. With that said, there are no new cars that interest me enough to get me in a showroom.

I'm an enthusiast, but I hate working on my car, so I really don't mind throwing the maintenance in there.

[Uber-Goober]

Even if one overlooks the financial end of it, I don't want to be told how many miles I can drive something or that it has to remain stock, I don't want to go to an autocross event and have to tape my license plates.

With respect to maintenance; manufactures have been extending service intervals to make it look like their cars are low maintenance, even after the 50k mark or whatever it might be for others. Bmw owners, and I suppose people who lease Bmw's too are better educated due to the club and forums. But the general public knows very little about proper maintenance. I used to own a car shop so speaking from personal experience and from talking with other car shop owners; you would always have a customer come in and be clueless about everything; so here you have to "relearn" them all over again because they were under the impression they only needed to have plugs changed at 100k...and by that time the car is falling apart....

[Bob]

*shrug* Your affordability metrics are fine. Excessive, but fine.

You are absolutely flat our WRONG about leasing, though. While you are correct that leasing has been used to move cars off the lot to people who probably really can't rationally afford them, that does not mean that it's not a useful tool.

Let's take a few examples here:
Buy a car for cash. $48,907 out the door.
5- year loan. $56,730.56 at 6%
3 year lease. $20,442.24 with $30,948.75 residual.

The example I used was the 335i that my Mom will return when the weather clears Actual purchase price out the door, actual lease deal. How exactly is that such a bad deal? The only downside is really that the residual is substantially higher than the market value of the car right now, which would be annoying if she decided to keep it.

I get that you would rather deal with your own maintenance. I'm not a huge fan of the "free" maintenance, either, as far as MY car is concerned. Net, net, though, it's a useful marketing tool for BMW, and it has no downside for 99% of the buyers. And really, do you actually believe that BMW pays anything like the thousand dollars a typical dealer charges for a single axle brake job?

Heres my example; buy for cash 87 325E $800, sell engine for $650, put in old spare M50, run the hell out of it for 2 years,scrap it for $300, replace with 91 318is @800, repeat as needed, except the 91 is going to appreciate$ considerably,with only 89K..

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Heres my example; buy for cash 87 325E $800, sell engine for $650, put in old spare M50, run the hell out of it for 2 years,scrap it for $300, replace with 91 318is @800, repeat as needed, except the 91 is going to appreciate$ considerably,with only 89K..

*shrug* On the other hand, if my parents did that, they'd pay a mechanic for all that work and it would cost them more than renting the 335i.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Even if one overlooks the financial end of it, I don't want to be told how many miles I can drive something or that it has to remain stock, I don't want to go to an autocross event and have to tape my license plates.

With respect to maintenance; manufactures have been extending service intervals to make it look like their cars are low maintenance, even after the 50k mark or whatever it might be for others. Bmw owners, and I suppose people who lease Bmw's too are better educated due to the club and forums. But the general public knows very little about proper maintenance. I used to own a car shop so speaking from personal experience and from talking with other car shop owners; you would always have a customer come in and be clueless about everything; so here you have to "relearn" them all over again because they were under the impression they only needed to have plugs changed at 100k...and by that time the car is falling apart....

People that clueless frequently don't believe in oil changes at all. I'm not really clear on how "free" maintenance makes the clueless people worse. If anything, it at least encourages them to show up for basic maintenance while the plan is in effect so that they aren't giving anything away.

As for mileage on leased cars, well, you just have to evaluate that rationally. If you put a lot of miles on the car, obviously it doesn't make sense. I've never claimed that it makes sense under all circumstances for everyone. All that I've pointed out is that rejecting leasing out of hand is wrong. (And that the more expensive the car, the more you should consider renting it. I wasn't kidding about the $40k loss my parents took because the bought the SL55 instead of leasing it.)

[Uber-Goober]

I used to have people come by my shop for a state inspection with 2 year old S klasse or 7 series they got from ebay for $33k...at least that comes to mind...new vehicles just don't make sense to me for the most part. I don't like to be the one to take the hit. I work hard for my easily earned money;-P

I don't like leases cause if I want to drive the flippin' thing to Mars and back I will do so without scrutiny, I rack up 20k miles a year, just about every year. I'm certainly not gonna sit at home due to a stinkin' rental, which is what a lease really is. I don't keep my vehicles stock and don't want to hear $hit from some fool at the dealer about a double din that replaced their laughable stock unit...BMW is notorious for $hit navigation that can't find it's way out of it's own garage. "I drive" should be called "I lost and now you are too". Another thing about leases is that you pay, or at least used to pay property tax...property tax on what, $hit you don't own?

The reason I don't like the manufacturer maintenance schedules is this: when I bought my first car, it came with a book of coupons, LOF every 3k, flushes every 30k, timing belt every 90k...Cars are made better today and last longer but if the manufacturers are gonna thrown in something, do it right and include everything at the proper intervals and educate the public, don't do it just half ass...but that does not benefit them...

For instance, my biggest beef with BMW is the "lifetime" fluid in auto gearboxes. We used to have customers coming in all the time, declining flushes due to this lifetime fluid and they would almost come to tears when their gearbox started acting up at 70k and needed to be replaced for $5k. What is cheaper, a $350 BG flush every 30k miles or a gearbox, that ironically still needs to be flushed?

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

I used to have people come by my shop for a state inspection with 2 year old S klasse or 7 series they got from ebay for $33k...at least that comes to mind...new vehicles just don't make sense to me for the most part. I don't like to be the one to take the hit. I work hard for my easily earned money;-P

I don't like leases cause if I want to drive the flippin' thing to Mars and back I will do so without scrutiny, I rack up 20k miles a year, just about every year. I'm certainly not gonna sit at home due to a stinkin' rental, which is what a lease really is. I don't keep my vehicles stock and don't want to hear $hit from some fool at the dealer about a double din that replaced their laughable stock unit...BMW is notorious for $hit navigation that can't find it's way out of it's own garage. "I drive" should be called "I lost and now you are too". Another thing about leases is that you pay, or at least used to pay property tax...property tax on what, $hit you don't own?

The reason I don't like the manufacturer maintenance schedules is this: when I bought my first car, it came with a book of coupons, LOF every 3k, flushes every 30k, timing belt every 90k...Cars are made better today and last longer but if the manufacturers are gonna thrown in something, do it right and include everything at the proper intervals and educate the public, don't do it just half ass...but that does not benefit them...

For instance, my biggest beef with BMW is the "lifetime" fluid in auto gearboxes. We used to have customers coming in all the time, declining flushes due to this lifetime fluid and they would almost come to tears when their gearbox started acting up at 70k and needed to be replaced for $5k. What is cheaper, a $350 BG flush every 30k miles or a gearbox, that ironically still needs to be flushed?

But just because leasing doesn't make sense for YOU doesn't mean that it's a bad program. And yes, of course it's a rental program. I use rent and lease fairly interchangeably myself. As for paying taxes on a lease, well, it's a NNN lease. Of course you're responsible for paying taxes on it. You expect BMW to roll that into the lease payment and hide it from you?

The only modification that my parents are interested in is winter wheels with snow tires. As for your DDIN nav example, well, uh, having installed a DDIN unit in an E46 once, I have to tell you that my verdict is never again. The amount of crap that you have to cut up is absurd. Again, 99% of owners are not like you or me. Just like any other option, you have to rationally analyze whether renting a car makes sense. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. If it does, it's frequently the better option. I'm NOT telling you that you should lease a new car. I'm telling you that it makes more sense for many people to rent it, whether or not they can comfortably pay cash.

As for service intervals, well, I agree that they are too long. *shrug* The only valid argument is that dumb people don't know that they should do a little extra. On the other hand, I still maintain that those same dumb people would very likely NOT have performed anything that they did not absolutely have to if they were paying out of pocket. I mean, just look how many M20s die because their idiot owners couldn't be bothered to change the damned timing belts as scheduled.

[uptownautoservice]

I thin the real truth is exposed when the various service intervals were magically increased when BMW picked up the tab.