(2009) NCC Autocross Event #6 - August 29 @ Sykesville, MD

[forrealb50]

Also... I would love to see some pictures from the last few events? Is there some link that I don't know about?

[adam]

For the previous event as Sykesville, there were 93 participants (372 runs) and 37 runs that went off-course or 9.9%. For today's event, there were 79 participants (316 runs) and 76 runs that went off-course or 24%. I used a simple word count from the results pages to get these numbers, so if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

I can understand that those of you who have been doing this for years might need the challenge, but for those of us who are just starting out, course layouts like this can be extremely frustrating.

I saw a lot of hands raised in the PM group when Bogdan asked who the first-timers were and I can't help but wonder how may of them will want to do this again.

What's up Mike - I had to respond to this one.

We recognize that there are many newcomers and want them to come back. One of our main goals is to get people to have fun and learn what their cars can really do. I can understand where you are coming from and obviously we try to design a course that can be driven by both beginners and experts alike.

Now realistically, it is impossible to please everyone as we all have different ideas and feelings about how something should be. My OPINION, and by no means does anyone have to agree with me, is that courses that challenge you make you a better driver. Of course they are more frustrating and I understand that people don't want to be frustrated on the weekend during a 'fun' activity... yet we offer instructors and many opportunities for people to get help. Also, slowing down so you can plan out where you want to drive will yield extra time to get from start to finish without hitting cones and staying on course. As an example, you sought out help and I drove with you, twice maybe? I can't remember as I drove with geez, like 15 people or something today, which happened because more drivers were getting 'lost' than usual. The people I saw that went off course typically were those that drove too fast and missed a gate (oops, slow down next time =] ) and had no idea where to go (oops, grab an instructor and slow down)... and I don't think that is a result of the course difficulty. To me, off courses come more from not being able to navigate from point A to B whereas course difficulty is related more to the times you put down... albeit these 2 things are correlated to some degree.

To put this in perspective, my very first autocross was at Rosecroft Raceway and I drove my 2002 VW GTi. I was off course my first 3 runs!! Yup, 3 runs!! I finally turned in a time on my 4th but it was horrifically slow. I came out of the event with a real appreciation for what it takes to be able to drive and wanted MORE. I couldn't wait to get out to the next event to learn, get better, and get faster. I began walking the course several times to make sure I knew where to go and my first run was always about 5 seconds slower than all my others so I could really 'see' the course and plan where to be. So please don't be frustrated when you are just starting out, it's part of the learning process and as Noel said, I bet you learned quite a lot today! I hope I helped in that process...

Ok that's long sorry... hope everyone had a good time as we avoided rain somehow today!!

-- Adam

[Sammyzuko]

I thought the course was a lot of fun. The best parts were the offset gates. It was a rush keeping it floored through both of them.

I agree. I really enjoyed the offset gates. While walking this course I didn't think it was going to be much fun to drive.....I was wrong. Props to the designers and everyone involved with running the event.

[jbrannon7]

Thanks for posting Noel. Was that you final run?

I couldn't believe more people in the AM heats didn't try going to the right of the first cone in the first optional slalom. I had to leave before the afternoon heats started, but I'll be interested in knowing if anyone else tried what I think was the fastest way. When I helped Sam Bell set up the course I tried to make that slalom as questionable as possible as to whether it was better to give up speed at the beginning or the end.
Woody

Woody, after thinking about it some, I think your way was faster because it shortened the run by 60 feet or so. Wish I had tried it.

Joe

[jbrannon7]

For the previous event as Sykesville, there were 93 participants (372 runs) and 37 runs that went off-course or 9.9%. For today's event, there were 79 participants (316 runs) and 76 runs that went off-course or 24%. I used a simple word count from the results pages to get these numbers, so if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

I can understand that those of you who have been doing this for years might need the challenge, but for those of us who are just starting out, course layouts like this can be extremely frustrating.

I saw a lot of hands raised in the PM group when Bogdan asked who the first-timers were and I can't help but wonder how may of them will want to do this again.

Last year was my first year doing this and I got lost at most events.

Here are some tips. When walking the course don't talk to anyone, concentrate on what you are going to see when you are driving. LOOK AHEAD in the walk the same way you will want to look ahead when driving. As you walk the course try and run it in your head from the start to where you are, when you get to the end you should know the course. Walk it as many times as you can.

Joe

[Bob]

Woody, after thinking about it some, I think your way was faster because it shortened the run by 60 feet or so. Wish I had tried it.

Joe

I always thought the mantra was slow in, fast out? (left of the 1st cone), did Woody go right on all runs?

[mcoupemindy]

I wonder if it would have been better or worse in the wet...

I was hoping for rain ... oh well ... had fun on the stock sized street tires anyhow.

[mcoupemindy]

It pains me to do this, but...

1 142 Przyborski, Paul 1996 BMW 318ti Black 49.152+1 54.095 54.629+OFF 54.410 51.152

That must be an error. There's no way I was that fast on my first run. My best time should be the 54.095, putting me in second for the class. Nice times out there Chris, and you'll get me next time Sam.

Well, you get a +1 for honesty. Per your request, I'll mark that run off course.

[mcoupemindy]

Woody, after thinking about it some, I think your way was faster because it shortened the run by 60 feet or so. Wish I had tried it.

Joe

I ran it both ways - and I'm not sure about which one was faster. But, as always, I took a fun run in the afternoon and knocked almost 2 seconds off my official timed runs (and clean).

[Gimp]

Well, you get a +1 for honesty. Per your request, I'll mark that run off course.

Thanks!

[mduhovich]

Thank you guys very much for this event! Thanks to all instructors who rode with me and gave me priceless advices =)) I had an opportunity to ride with Chris and that was something amazing! Unfortunately I missed the opportunity to ride with Woody, so I am still blaming myself for that=(( Thanks to Joe who got some videos of my runs. I noticed a lot of little details that I can work on and I did not even know before that I had problems in these areas. Anyway, as usual - great event. I also have to notice that it is much more organized and smoother than it used to be half a year ago at Summit Point.

As a beginner I have to say that this course was about as difficult as courses at 4 other events I attended. I went off course, then, I had doubts about where to go next two runs and, finally, the fourth run - I figured it out. However, I came late and only had a chance to walk through the course 1.5 times. So, I guess I paid for it later.

I was wondering if it is possible to have more cones, or even chalked course. If it is ok, I will be willing to volunteer and after the main setup is done, I can add the leading line or whatever, that will (I hope) eliminate some off course cases? At the end of the day, autocross is about driving and handling your car, not only about remembering the course.

[woodym3]

I always thought the mantra was slow in, fast out? (left of the 1st cone), did Woody go right on all runs?

Actually I'm not sure which was best, and think it might have been car dependent. My first run I went right thinking the faster approach and shorter distance would more than make up for the much slower exit / entry into the 180. My second run I went left of the first slalom cone, but the run was already ruined by understeering into the outside of Biggin's "triangle". Still not knowing which way was better, I went left on my third run too.
Hitting a cone on the finish slalom didn't affect my time and I was over 1/2 second slower. So I figured the path to the right of the first slalom cone was the best and my final run proved to be fastest.

John Nicolaysen (red Miata) tried each way twice and reported he was about 1 second slower when going to the right. Of all the cars in the second heat, I thought his car looked fastest through that slalom no matter which way he went.

[woodym3]

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I agree with Maria that course memorization should not be the prime factor in autocross performance. Unfortunately it has to be an important element though. Yes, if 24% of all runs were off course, then the course was too confusing. Sam started with a course design that was very simple. But those of us helping him were afraid it would result in times of less than 30 seconds. So more and more features got added and you saw the result.

It is my opinion that the current popular use of walls, "Chicago Boxes", pointer cones, etc make for a very visually confusing course (the proverbial "sea of cones"). This trend has come from the SCCA national course designs used for events where everyone is an experienced autocrosser. In the old days of the Metropolitan Washington Council of Sports Car Clubs series, each gate had to be at least 40 feet past the previous one. A gate consistented of one cone on each side of the line. "Pointer" cones were never used except at the first cone of a non-optional slalom. One old timer that wrote for a local sports car weekly (The Stopwatcher) used to brag about his course that used 8 cones (besides start and finish). I guess I'm saying that I think more cones would add to the problem, not solve it.

Some organizations do use a baseball line marker (a small wheeled contraption) that dumps a line of lime (flour is more environmental friendly these days) around one side of the course. Is that helpful to beginners? I've always contended that your eyes are not looking far enough ahead if you are trying to follow this chaulked line. Other opinions?

[slick230]

I have a few videos from the Autocross (#6). You can see what I have here...

http://www.youtube.com/user/slick230

Enjoy.

[ronh21]

Here are some tips. When walking the course don't talk to anyone, concentrate on what you are going to see when you are driving. LOOK AHEAD in the walk the same way you will want to look ahead when driving. As you walk the course try and run it in your head from the start to where you are, when you get to the end you should know the course. Walk it as many times as you can.

I started autocross at the spring school. Yesterday was my 10th event of the year and I'm still pretty paranoid about getting lost at every event I do, even though I never have. What I do, and would recommend if you're having problems, is

1. Sign up for AM second group, or PM and get there early, then really pay attention to where people are having problems while you're working. For me, this is at least as important as the course walk.

2. As Joe says, walk the course alone. I don't even want to hear the chatter from groups walking around me. I'll wait until they're out of range. I always walk at least twice. If you're not sure which way the course goes, ask someone but then let them finish their walk (follow them ). Also, the longer you take to get registered and teched, the less time you'll have to walk. Get in line early.

For me, today's course broke down into three easy-ish to remember sections. Around the edge ending with a u-turn towards the middle, the hard left, then a big "S" starting and ending with slaloms. That would keep me heading the right direction. Of course there were other details, but that was it in a nutshell. If I could've just gotten a clean run...

I was able to ride with a few people today to help them out, which was great. I also took one for a ride with me. I'm happy to do that any time somebody wants to jump in. My car's not as cool as Bogdans or Jonathans, but you may still learn something. I don't want to see people getting frustrated and quitting.

Ron