E30 5 point harness installation

[Scany]

We will be bolting in our 4 point roll bar as well as new race seats with harness. My question is if there's any suggestions to how to bolt in the harnesses. the roll bar has a horizontal bar behind the driver, but a diagonal behind the passenger. So I guess the best place will be to bolt it into the rear shelf where the rear seatbelts where bolted in, or?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I found Scroths installation manual, but it would be good to have some E30 specific advice.

Thanks!

[Bruce N]

I'd recommend having someone weld in a horizontal bar the rest of the way across for the passenger harness. Attaching the shoulder belts to the rear belt anchor points makes the belts way too long and have too much stretch. Very unsafe IMO.

[Car54]

Sorry Steven but post this on bimmerforums, in the track section

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...play.php?f=128

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

If you're male, please, please buy a 6 point harness. (Unless you're not planning on having kids.)

And please buy a HANS device. IMHO, you're in greater danger at a DE using a harness with no HANS than you are using stock seat belts. The risk of serious neck injuries in even a relatively minor crash far outweighs the extremely low likelihood that you'll have a really exciting incident in which the harness would help.

(I should note that just this last weekend an E36 M3 driver was taken to the hospital with two stretched vertebrae after crashing his caged/harnessed car. Having seen the damage to the car, I don't think he'd have been injured at all if the car had been stock.)

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

I'd recommend having someone weld in a horizontal bar the rest of the way across for the passenger harness. Attaching the shoulder belts to the rear belt anchor points makes the belts way too long and have too much stretch. Very unsafe IMO.

The belt length isn't really an issue - but attaching to the rear belt locations is very unsafe for a different reason. The stock locations are at a significant down angle. In a bad crash, this would exert significant compression pressure against the spine. That's bad.

[OwnedbyDuncan]

My suggestion is have a professional do the installation or at least get and pay for their advice. Or if the car is just being used for schools talk to NCC's chief instructor and get his advice. He runs a E30325is and does not have a bar or cage last time I looked.

A bar or cage, harness and race seats can actually be less safe than a completely stock car. Safety equipment needs to properely thought out and installed. It is a system and going cheap or not devoting the time to develop a well thought out plan can be life threatening. You need to know what you are doing and reading the instructions in this case is really not a good idea.

Also race seats can be dangerous on the street since they do not not provide sufficient neck support. Race seats are made for helmet use and lack the proper support for street driving when you aren't wearing a helmet.

Where are you putting the eyelets for the lap belts and submarine belt?
Are the locations strong enough? Are they compromising your safety?

If the car is just for schools remember you are not only jeopardizing your life but the isntructor who has to get in the car with you.

I ran an E30325i for years in schools with a bar or cage w/stock belts and
Recaro street seat.

Dave Apker and the collies
Working w/sheep is lot more dangerous than HPDE's and racing

[Scany]

The car is only going to be used for DEs, so it won't see any street use.

This is the reason I wanted some advice on this, because we need to do this right. I realize that poor design might be worse than your stock setup.

6 point sounds like the way to go then I guess Where we bolt it in must be carefully looked at. It's one of our obstacles. It seems like our seat bracket has bolt holes for the lap belts, our shoulder belts will go onto the bar (which I discovered has a complete horizontal when I took another look at it), and we'll have to figure out a safe place for the submarine belts to bolt on.

Who would be a professional in this case that could advice and inspect a design like this? Any in the area, like RRT maybe?

I've looked and heard a lot about HANS and I will be sure to include it in my safety budget.

Another question, what is the standard for belts? What should we consider when choosing a harness? Safety is a great concern, but we are also on a budget to a certain extent.

[Nick325xiT 5spd]

Basically, what you're looking for in a harness is FIA certification. SFI is also acceptable.

Installing the submarine belts shouldn't be much of a challenge. Drill through the floor, glue in a healthy sized reinforcement plate, and bolt the anchors in with hefty fender washers. Position them according to the manual, which, I believe will be behind and to the side of where they thread through the seat. Make sure to account for sliders moving the seat around. You may install them in the future even if you're not using them now.

[Scotty]

the roll bar has a horizontal bar behind the driver, but a diagonal behind the passenger.

So, the harness bar terminates at the diagonal? Hm. Yeah, I'd get the harness bar completed to the other side if this is strictly a DE car. Remember - the rules always require equivalent protection for the passenger.

So I guess the best place will be to bolt it into the rear shelf where the rear seatbelts where bolted in, or?

As the Schroth manual says, most racing seats are not designed to absorb the crash load in a downward installation. If you must anchor to the chassis, a bar is recommended to obtain a horizontal strap angle. But, then, if you have the bar, you should anchor to that. 8" max from seat to bar, no more than 20 degrees down angle.

[OwnedbyDuncan]

The car is only going to be used for DEs, so it won't see any street use.

This is the reason I wanted some advice on this, because we need to do this right. I realize that poor design might be worse than your stock setup.

6 point sounds like the way to go then I guess Where we bolt it in must be carefully looked at. It's one of our obstacles. It seems like our seat bracket has bolt holes for the lap belts, our shoulder belts will go onto the bar (which I discovered has a complete horizontal when I took another look at it), and we'll have to figure out a safe place for the submarine belts to bolt on.

Who would be a professional in this case that could advice and inspect a design like this? Any in the area, like RRT maybe?


I've looked and heard a lot about HANS and I will be sure to include it in my safety budget.

Another question, what is the standard for belts? What should we consider when choosing a harness? Safety is a great concern, but we are also on a budget to a certain extent.

How are you getting the car to the track? And I believe NCC rules state car must be insured ie liability insurance.

Not sure if things have changed but when I was DC chances were better than 50% that cars with bars or cages would be problem children and need a little special attention. And they would be involved in incidents more often.

As I said previously which you missed talk to NCC's chief instructor. He knows more about school prep for E30's than most shops, mechanics and racers. He has run an E30325is for last 13 years or so and knows the cars. Again he doesnt run a bar or cage.

A rollbar in a car for track use in my opinion is great for the rare rollover.
Chances are you are going impact something with the front, rear or side of your car and a bar does nothing. Since you have race seats using the stock mounts you face additional safety concerns. The belts put a lot more stress on the seat and mounts in a shunt. I would go with a welded in cage and not go half way! Or no bar etc. If its a question of cost then cut the SO's shoe budget and get the cage and do it right!

The safety systems you are considering maybe safer or they may not be
than stock. The bar only protects you in the rarests of incidents even at the big track at Summit Point. Its alot more likely you will lose it going into Turn 3 and impact the tire barrier on driver's right or lose it coming out Turn 10 and hit the the tire wall on driver's right and then come across the track and hit it again. The bar will do nothing and along with belts and seat may even cause injuries you may have avoided being stock.

Again talk to the chief instructor. He knows the cars and has been an instructor and doing schools for at least 30 years. He owns his own shop however I am not sure if he is accepting new clients. He has a vested interest in keeping you safe and alive!

Dave Apker and the collies

[Scany]

I have the NCC instructor's phone number (Bill I believe his name is). Maybe I'll give him a call.

Rollbar vs no rollbar to me isn't that hard. Rollbar vs complete cage is another story. But we aren't talking a $500 upgrade.

My other option is to leave the stock seatbelts and no rollbar.