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[woodym3]

Like I said, I don't know the facts. Even if she had lots of prior experience, since when do you allow someone to solo based on the size of the car hauler?

[getfast]

Like I said, I don't know the facts. Even if she had lots of prior experience, since when do you allow someone to solo based on the size of the car hauler?

Their hauler has nothing to do with anything. She applied - and was verified by TrackDaze - as an Advanced-level, passing-in-corners with a point by, driver. I don't know her exact experience but it must have been significant to get into that run group. Then she went out and made a mistake. Unfortunate, but... it happens.

AFAIK the only two incidents were from her and her partner with the red 911 (light right side impact into tirewall.) Needless to say, they won't be invited back...

Jon

[78 Rocco]

Woody, your statements are incorrect. She was an advanced driver out during the first session for that group on Thursday morning. She rolled the Cobra in T14 and walked away totally unhurt. The car was back on track that afternoon. She was NOT a first timer, she was NOT in a group that used instructors (TrackDaze advanced = NASA HPDE3, i.e. passing anywhere with a point by), and she COULDN'T have had an instructor anyway due to her Cobra's single roll hoop. She was the first one to admit that she made a big mistake all by herself with no other cars around, and the first to tell anyone and everyone that her wreck had NOTHING to do with the event organizers or anything but her own unfortunate error.

I was there, working as Event Director & Control. The above statements are FACTS, not internet rumors. Please send them along to whoever told you otherwise, because their information is wrong.

Thanks,

Jon

Thanks for clarifying and setting the record straight. As Jon said, this was an unfortunate driver error by a very experienced driver, early in the day. But thankfully and most importantly she walked away with little more than a bruised ego.

Anyone that knows us and has been to one of our events can attest that like Jon and the crew from Get Fast, safety is at the top our our list also. So from this we will learn as well.

Regards, Eric

[fpol]

Woody - their event was exceptional in terms of timing and logistics. Perhaps one of the best events I've been to in that regard.

Where they were not exceptional for me as a BMW CCA guy (and CCA schools get their own criticism from the "I want to drive solo with just 3 days experience" crowd), is in classing. They seem to go on the pick your class based on # of days method. I'm a fan of the NCC earn your way method. Nothing wrong with earning a solo sticker if you're anything lower than advanced.

I've got 29 days (10 w/NCC) - get way more point bys than I give, yet NCC CCA has me in B group - which is awesome. EARN your stripes. That B group is on average faster and to a man much more observant than the intermediate group i ran with this week.

...and CCA had instructors in the car all weekend - so *just* running solo means squat.

The incident though- I've seen as many in heavily instructed schools as otherwise, so I doubt that was TrackDaze fault. Bending cars seems pretty common in upper int/Advanced groups for whatever reason.

[fpol]

By the way - anyone know what is behind the long sleeve cotton top/pants requirement. Personally i never wear shorts so it's no issue, and really could care less about the top - but it seems odd as a requirement. I mean is a long sleeve cotton pants/shirt going to do any more good in a fire than shorts?

Just wondering?

[1996 328ti]

By the way - anyone know what is behind the long sleeve cotton top/pants requirement. Personally i never wear shorts so it's no issue, and really could care less about the top - but it seems odd as a requirement. I mean is a long sleeve cotton pants/shirt going to do any more good in a fire than shorts?

Just wondering?

Could protect you from glass shards. Cotton gives you one more layer until your skin. Those are my guesses.

[1996 328ti]

Woody - their event was exceptional in terms of timing and logistics. Perhaps one of the best events I've been to in that regard.

Where they were not exceptional for me as a BMW CCA guy (and CCA schools get their own criticism from the "I want to drive solo with just 3 days experience" crowd), is in classing. They seem to go on the pick your class based on # of days method. I'm a fan of the NCC earn your way method. Nothing wrong with earning a solo sticker if you're anything lower than advanced.

I've got 29 days (10 w/NCC) - get way more point bys than I give, yet NCC CCA has me in B group - which is awesome. EARN your stripes. That B group is on average faster and to a man much more observant than the intermediate group i ran with this week.

...and CCA had instructors in the car all weekend - so *just* running solo means squat.

The incident though- I've seen as many in heavily instructed schools as otherwise, so I doubt that was TrackDaze fault. Bending cars seems pretty common in upper int/Advanced groups for whatever reason.

I'm going to go a bit off topic but pretty much NCC A and B groups have similar experience. I think one difference may be that A group have instructors in training.

But if you read some of the students' posts on their own boards about this past school, they don't want to learn. They just want to drive fast. I've had people ask me how many schools do I need before they can solo at an NCC. I tell them, save your money. If you want to be signed off, our schools are not for you.

It's a given that many 'schools' will sign off students due to the lack of instructors. It's a shame. Students don't know what they are missing.

Eric and Jon, that is not directed to you. Just a general comment.

[78 Rocco]

I'm going to go a bit off topic but pretty much NCC A and B groups have similar experience. I think one difference may be that A group have instructors in training.

But if you read some of the students' posts on their own boards about this past school, they don't want to learn. They just want to drive fast. I've had people ask me how many schools do I need before they can solo at an NCC. I tell them, save your money. If you want to be signed off, our schools are not for you.

It's a given that many 'schools' will sign off students due to the lack of instructors. It's a shame. Students don't know what they are missing.

Eric and Jon, that is not directed to you. Just a general comment.

No problem, we honestly appreciate the feedback and constructive criticism. It is just the "rumors" and assumptions that needed to be addressed.

It is our intent and practice to have people "work" their way up through our ranks and demonstrate the ability to be in the upper groups based on skill, not just number of days. We look out for people that are not ready for the group they sign up for and bumped a couple down last week. We work hard to verify experience, but at the end of the day when people are coming from different clubs with different rules and methods of advancing up it is a challenge and personal responsibility comes into play, with number of previous events and the level at other organizations being our only real gauge until they attend one of our events and we can begin evaluating them ourselves.

So my question for the NCC guys, is if someone signs up for your event and says they are a NASA HPDE 3 level or ACNA advanced level driver, where would you put them and how would you handle/validate?

Thanks again and you can rest assured we will continue to work hard to improve and safety is our #1 goal. It is not our desire to be known as a club that just turns guys loose and we don't want the students that only want that either. We all know there already is somewhere (no names mentioned..) they can go...

[78 Rocco]

By the way - anyone know what is behind the long sleeve cotton top/pants requirement. Personally i never wear shorts so it's no issue, and really could care less about the top - but it seems odd as a requirement. I mean is a long sleeve cotton pants/shirt going to do any more good in a fire than shorts?

Just wondering?

The long sleeve shirt and pants is VIR's rule/requirement.

[woodym3]

Their hauler has nothing to do with anything. She applied - and was verified by TrackDaze - as an Advanced-level, passing-in-corners with a point by, driver. I don't know her exact experience but it must have been significant to get into that run group. Then she went out and made a mistake. Unfortunate, but... it happens.

AFAIK the only two incidents were from her and her partner with the red 911 (light right side impact into tirewall.) Needless to say, they won't be invited back...

Jon

Jon and all,
When I made the comment about the size of the car hauler I was responding to GSpot35 and hadn't seen your post that was made just before mine. I also didn't realize you were involved with this event Jon.

Student run group assignments is always a difficult job, particularily for a new organization that doesn't have a data base of of student histories and evaluations. I learned long ago that the number of track days on a student's resume is just one indicator of how good they might be. All BMWCCA chapters I run with require an instructor in the right seat unless they are completely familiar with that student. Some go so far as to allow known students to solo with instructors on a Friday instructor practice day, but then require an instructor during the Saturday sessions until "signed off" for solo.

I am glad to know I was wrong about the Cobra driver's experinence. Jon, I'm also surprised when you said she and the 911 driver would not be invited back. Unless there's more to it that I don't know, it seems everyone should be given a second chance to develop their driving skills in a safe manner. Unfortunately you and I have both seen first session incidents, even in the instructor group. It has plagued all organizations.
Woody

[getfast]

I am glad to know I was wrong about the Cobra driver's experinence. Jon, I'm also surprised when you said she and the 911 driver would not be invited back. Unless there's more to it that I don't know, it seems everyone should be given a second chance to develop their driving skills in a safe manner. Unfortunately you and I have both seen first session incidents, even in the instructor group. It has plagued all organizations.
Woody

Thanks Woody. There's nothing you don't know. They were both perfectly nice people and everyone's entitled to a second chance but this is a safety issue so I have to wonder if there's a mindset between 'em that could be an issue at a later date. I'd recommend putting an instructor with 'em in the future to hopefully keep such a thing from ever happening again.

I am guilty of a first session instructor group incident myself. It cost me a great little short bumper E30 325is on Shenandoah two summers ago. My instance was a mistake (mechanical failure followed by driver error) but luckily I was allowed back. Therefore I see your point...

You know I've been around for years. I don't claim to be an expert but I do know a thing or two thanks to my experience in the NASA ranks particularly. It has been an honor and a pleasure to help TrackDaze develop their program and I promise you, these guys are serious about safety and about putting together an even better program in the future. All constructive criticism is greatly appreciated - TrackDaze is listening!

Time for bed,

Jon

[fpol]

It's a given that many 'schools' will sign off students due to the lack of instructors. It's a shame. Students don't know what they are missing.

No question that a major problem is the ego of many students and the perceived 'status' of driving solo. There are more "I fly solo" type drivers out there than we'd care to believe. The truth is though, nothing beats keeping a good instructor silent and having them thank you for a good run, followed closely by them then finding that thing you're just not doing perfectly and focusing on getting you to correct it even when you *thought* you were doing great.

When you sit in a classroom and realize just how little intermediate level guys know about driving dynamics, etc, you wonder how they think that they can self coach running solo - so the natural reaction to being passed is looking for speed in tires, mods, etc well before they can hit the apex on a given turn twice in succession.

By the way, loved the 3x30 minute sessions each day (well Thursday at least) - more than advertised, and really seems like a good fit for VIR Full. I've driven some 40 minutes there in 98+ degree heat and those were loooong.

[1996 328ti]

By the way, loved the 3x30 minute sessions each day (well Thursday at least) - more than advertised, and really seems like a good fit for VIR Full. I've driven some 40 minutes there in 98+ degree heat and those were loooong.

Depending on the rhythm of the session, I'm looking for the checkered at 25 minutes.

I remember my first classroom with Miriam.
Most of us were first timers. She asked, how many know how to drive?
Our hands went up.
The last classroom session, same question.
We had our tails between our legs.
When it came down to it, none of us really understood the physical dynamics of the car. Almost 10 years later I'm still amazed when an instructor can point out a some small change in my driving that makes a world of difference. As simple as brake a bit earlier and get on the gas sooner.

I was one a 2 year plateau with no improvement in sight. A Tarheel instructor was able to push me over that plateau. I was faster and I felt more comfortable by the end of the weekend.

VIR in 2 more weeks for me.

[78 Rocco]

It has been an honor and a pleasure to help TrackDaze develop their program and I promise you, these guys are serious about safety and about putting together an even better program in the future. All constructive criticism is greatly appreciated - TrackDaze is listening!

Jon

Thanks Jon, could not have said it any better myself. We are serious and building a better program with each successive event. Just like driving, no matter how many of these you do (organize and run), you always have something to learn and improve on.

And thanks to anyone and everyone who has feedback, we truly welcome it. Feel free to drop me and/or Jon an e-mail about anything likes, dislikes, ideas, etc.

Eric

[Car54]

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