NCC Autocross Classing Meeting

[Pete]

It's good to hear that you have such a finely tuned butt dyno.

While it is a butt dyno evalution, this car easily rivals the E46 M3.
The issue I believe is more of a situation of where the technology and abilities of this car far exceed the capabilities of the older cars. Take my last post as a good comparison of pitting a stock 2002ti against the 328IS. While the 328 is heavier and more powerful than the 2002ti, the end result of the whole car is a faster car hands down (due to suspension, brakes and other improvements) and this would not be fair to the guys running stock older 3 series cars.

The question is do we approach this with a new grouping or stick them in a group that exists where it is approximately even.

To be perfectly honest I could careless where we stick them since I have no vested interest. I do have a concern that this will deter novices from participating after learning that they have a sizeable margin to close because there is a noticably superior car in the class.

Pete

[bren]

So stick them somewhere and see how it goes. I wonder how many 335's are going to show up anyway. IIRC, there were no e90 cars this year at any events.

[AlfaEric]

While it is a butt dyno evalution, this car easily rivals the E46 M3.
The issue I believe is more of a situation of where the technology and abilities of this car far exceed the capabilities of the older cars. Take my last post as a good comparison of pitting a stock 2002ti against the 328IS. While the 328 is heavier and more powerful than the 2002ti, the end result of the whole car is a faster car hands down (due to suspension, brakes and other improvements) and this would not be fair to the guys running stock older 3 series cars.

The question is do we approach this with a new grouping or stick them in a group that exists where it is approximately even.

To be perfectly honest I could careless where we stick them since I have no vested interest. I do have a concern that this will deter novices from participating after learning that they have a sizeable margin to close because there is a noticably superior car in the class.

Pete

Technology is going to continue to increase. That's what a few people have been saying. Someone running a stock 2002ti currently WOULD be against someone running a stock 328is (if they both chose to run showroom). That is why the person with the 2002ti would typically upclass themselves into PT.

A person with a stock 328is would typically run in showroom. It's up to them to decide if they want to run in showroom or in a prepared class. If a lot of people decide to run 335s in showroom next season then it might be worth it for them to run in prepared. If not, they could consider staying in showroom. The showroom class is always going to get faster (hopefully). You shouldn't need to limit it because of older models. You should only be worrying about where to class cars for modified/prepared. Just assume that older cars are going to be modded and moved into the appropriate class over time.

---Eric

[JST]

I just drove Booger's new 335is and I can confidently say that it would absolutely decimate the E36 and E46 3 series cars. The power on the car is phenomenal (see more torque than E46 M3 at low and mid rpm), with virtually no lag. I have no idea what this thing can do up top since it's still in break in period but would venture that the car is as quick as the E46 M3. The argument for the cars additional weight contributing negatively to handling is more or less unfounded as it is easily as fast around turns as the E46 M3. The car is extremely quick and very easy to drive fast as it is forgiving.

There is literally no way to judge this without putting a stop watch on it. All the same, physics is physics. The 335 weighs a lot more than the M3 and has the same size tire/wheel combo (with 18s on both cars)--that is going to affect handling. I don't think you can say that's unfounded based on the results of a brief test drive.

Moreover, what about the traction arguments? The 335 is plenty fast on the street, but what happens when you turn DTC off and try and put 300 lbs/ft of torque down through a peg leg diff? If an E46 330 is already traction-limited without an LSD, how is adding gobs more power and torque going to really help the 335?

Given the cars' abilities, I believe that in the correct hands this car would destroy the other cars in showroom. I think the 335 is analogous to making the 2002ti compete against the E36 328. It would unbalance the class and I fear the 335 would make novices (who mainly run in showroom) disheartened by the car they have to compete with. Therefore, eroding the environment that we have that encourages novices to participate.

"In the correct hands?" Perhaps. How many people with the correct hands are going to be running 335s this year, especially in stock class?

I agree with the other posters--it's likely that at least some novices will show up in 335s, and if they have to run against M3s they are going to be just as demoralized as anyone else.

I think we have 2 options:

1. To class the 335 cars in showroom M
2. Stick them in "prepared sport" but this would make the classing rules even more complex than they are now.

The third option (and I think the best one) is to put them in showroom non-M, which is where they belong, since they are stock, non-M cars.

Absent empirical evidence as to just how dominant the 335 is (if, in fact, it will be), I don't see any reason to change the classing structure that we have already established. Non-M, stock cars should presumptively be in the non-M, stock category.

If 335s turn up and start rendering everything else in stock non-competitive, we can absolutely re-class them next year (though, by then, the 400+ hp M3 with a limited slip may be out--where are we going to put that? Showroom Really Fast M?)

Look, we have two categories of showroom cars. That will lead to unfairness. Do you really think that an E24 M635CSi is going to be as fast around an autocross course as an Z4 M? Or that an E34 M5 can compete with an E46 M3? Of course not. Some cars in a class are going to be faster than other cars in a class. That's the way it is.

There is no reason to chart a different course with the 335. It's going to be faster than an E46 330 (probably), but an E46 330 is going to wipe the floor with an E36 318iCA, too, and those cars are in the same class.

[Biggins]

I really don't mind the idea to move the Minis into Touring (base), Sport (S), Supersport (JCW). The only thing I have against it is that some unknown to NCC may not understand why they're up against Minis at a BMWCCA event.

I do know if a well prepped/good pilot HS Mini shows up, our tight competition in Touring may turn into a battle for distant 2nd. Also, a well prepped GS Mini would be difficult to beat in Sport. This is all theoretical, but I know as I've improved I'm still nowhere near an HS Mini time, but on par with Touring competitors.

[AlfaEric]

I really don't mind the idea to move the Minis into Touring (base), Sport (S), Supersport (JCW). The only thing I have against it is that some unknown to NCC may not understand why they're up against Minis at a BMWCCA event.

I do know if a well prepped/good pilot HS Mini shows up, our tight competition in Touring may turn into a battle for distant 2nd. Also, a well prepped GS Mini would be difficult to beat in Sport. This is all theoretical, but I know as I've improved I'm still nowhere near an HS Mini time, but on par with Touring competitors.

We looked at this a while back and I believe a Mini would have taken 1st place in Touring by several seconds (when 2nd->5th was within a fraction of a second apart). Someone would have to verify this though... I'm not going back through all the results.

---Eric

[woodym3]

We looked at this a while back and I believe a Mini would have taken 1st place in Touring by several seconds (when 2nd->5th was within a fraction of a second apart). Someone would have to verify this though... I'm not going back through all the results.

---Eric

Is this what you are thinking about Eric? It's what I sent to you and Pete last week about how Jim Harris' Cooper S (on Street Tires) would have fared if competing in Prepared Sport:

Hmmm. You may have a point Pete. Jim Harris ran our first five events. His car is not radically prepared (he runs STX in SCCA) and I think he did our events on "street" tires. So he would be in Prepared Sport under my proposal. This past season he would have finished 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 4th and 1st in PS.

[AlfaEric]

Is this what you are thinking about Eric? It's what I sent to you and Pete last week about how Jim Harris' Cooper S (on Street Tires) would have fared if competing in Prepared Sport:

Hmmm. You may have a point Pete. Jim Harris ran our first five events. His car is not radically prepared (he runs STX in SCCA) and I think he did our events on "street" tires. So he would be in Prepared Sport under my proposal. This past season he would have finished 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 4th and 1st in PS.

That wasn't exactly what I was looking for but it works. I remember looking at the non-s cars a while back (very little data) when the discussion came up about either adding MINI classes or merging them. The same classing suggestions came up back then (PT/PS).

---Eric

[John V]

A 335 will have no chance against an equally prepared and driven E46 M3 around an autocross course.

The SCCA put the thing in F Stock for chrissakes and none of those folks are at all concerned about a 3500+lb, one-wheel drive BMW.

Put the car in "Showroom" and be done with it.

[BahnBaum]

And put the Mini S's in Sport. As Woody points out, Jim H's STX mini's times would have put him near the top of Prepared Sport, which is where his driving should have him. I'm assuming the non S would slot well into Touring.

Alex

[Pete]

And put the Mini S's in Sport. As Woody points out, Jim H's STX mini's times would have put him near the top of Prepared Sport, which is where his driving should have him. I'm assuming the non S would slot well into Touring.

Alex

Yep. That was the idea we are toying around with.

As for the 335 issue, there will be at least 2 with decent drivers next year. I guess they can discourage novices from participating in showroom. A single 335is was in our last 2 events. He was novice and kept driving aids on. I believe so he was slower than the other guys in showroom.

I am open to the option of classing them in a class and moving them around if neccesary (at the end of the year).

[JST]

Yep. That was the idea we are toying around with.

As for the 335 issue, there will be at least 2 with decent drivers next year. I guess they can discourage novices from participating in showroom. A single 335is was in our last 2 events. He was novice and kept driving aids on. I believe so he was slower than the other guys in showroom.

I am open to the option of classing them in a class and moving them around if neccesary (at the end of the year).

There will be two with decent drivers running in showroom? Or will they have mods (like tires) that will kick them out of the showroom class?

I think it makes sense to class them in showroom and revisit the issue at the end of the year. I assume the re-classification would apply prospectively only, though, and that we wouldn't be trying to re-class cars in events that have already taken place.

[Pete]

There will be two with decent drivers running in showroom? Or will they have mods (like tires) that will kick them out of the showroom class?

I think it makes sense to class them in showroom and revisit the issue at the end of the year. I assume the re-classification would apply prospectively only, though, and that we wouldn't be trying to re-class cars in events that have already taken place.

They will be stock.

I was thinking put them in stick them in a class perhaps, showroom M or Showroom and depending on how fast they are, then they may get moved.

Sort of like the contingent Mini class we did last year. We set up a class, but if they didn't have enough for a group, then they where going to get put back into X for the year end points. We could do something like that here.

Pete

[woodym3]

Hello Everyone,

I wanted to let everyone know that the Classing Meeting will be held on December 19, 2006 at 7:00 PM. The meeting will be held at Famous Daves BBQ in Gaithersburg, MD.

917 Quince Orchard Road
Gaithersburg, MD 20878

[
Pete

I found out tonight that this meeting is actually Saturday, December 16!!

[Pete]

I found out tonight that this meeting is actually Saturday, December 16!!

My mistake. It is on the 19th Tuesday. Sorry about that.

Pete