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Thread: NCC Autocross Classing Meeting

                  
   
  1. #1
    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    NCC Autocross Classing Meeting

    Hello Everyone,

    I wanted to let everyone know that the Classing Meeting will be held on December 19, 2006 at 7:00 PM. The meeting will be held at Famous Daves BBQ in Gaithersburg, MD.

    917 Quince Orchard Road
    Gaithersburg, MD 20878

    http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFC...%A0Map=Get+Map

    If you plan on attending, please let us know here as I need a general headcount to reserve a table.

    Also, this would be the ideal place to discuss any classing changes for 2007.

    As discussed in a different thread, where to put the Mini's are always a good starting point.

    Another point of discussion is where to class the 335i. As most of you are aware, this car is pumping out well over 320hp and is as fast as the E46 M3. Should this car be placed with the M3's or the normal 6 cylinder cars?

    Please discuss,

    Pete

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    Senior Member bren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post

    Another point of discussion is where to class the 335i. As most of you are aware, this car is pumping out well over 320hp and is as fast as the E46 M3. Should this car be placed with the M3's or the normal 6 cylinder cars?

    Please discuss,

    Pete
    Somehow I missed this thread so here is my opinion since I won't be at the meeting....

    The 335 may be as fast as a the (current) M3 in a drag race, but thankfully we have turns in autox.

    To sum up: No LSD + 3600lbs =
    Last edited by bren; 12-06-2006 at 10:45 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    As most of you are aware, this car is pumping out well over 320hp and is as fast as the E46 M3.
    In a drag race or an autocross?
    OH NOES!!!!!1 MY CAR HAS T3H UND3R5T33R5555!!!!!!1oneone!!!!11

    Team WTF?!
    What are you gonna do? :dunno:

  4. #4
    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clyde View Post
    In a drag race or an autocross?
    In a drag race definately. Time will tell about the turning part. My concern is that these cars will blow away everything else in the showroom class and thus this discussion. For what I have read (see magazine racing), these cars handle very well.

    Pete

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    Senior Member bren's Avatar
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    Every year the cars will get faster and handle better, it is what it is.

    You'll have to go to far more classes to be "fair" to everyone (see the SCCA mess of classing to get an idea.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bren View Post
    Every year the cars will get faster and handle better, it is what it is.

    You'll have to go to far more classes to be "fair" to everyone (see the SCCA mess of classing to get an idea.)

    Agreed. You could have made a similar argument about the E46 330, which had similar power and performance numbers to the prior generation M3. And what will we do with the E92 M3 when it becomes available, assuming that it can smoke all of the prior-gen M cars?

    At the end of the day, I'd be stunned if (assuming the same driver) a 335 could stay with an E46 M3 around an autocross course. As bren mentioned, without an LSD (and with a couple of hundred extra lbs) the 335 just isn't going to cut it. Hell, my 330 is already severely hampered by inside-wheel spin, and it has nowhere near the wall of torque that the new twin turbo engine does.

    I won't be able to make the classing meeting, but my 2c is that the 335 should stay in the same class as the 330 and other non-M BMWs.

    EDIT: Even as against an E46 ZHP, I'm not sure that the 335 will have the advantage you assume (and even at that, when was the last time a ZHP won its class in our region? The differences in E36s and E46s haven't generally been big enough to overcome the differences in drivers).

    Yes, the 335 has a lot more power, but as I note above, the ZHP can't make effective use of all the power it has, so adding power isn't necessarily a huge advantage (especially on the tiny lots we use). The suspension geometry is presumably improved, but have E90 330s been putting E46s on the trailer? I don't know the answer, but I doubt it. And the weight penalty is huge; 200-300 additional lbs.
    Last edited by JST; 12-07-2006 at 01:03 PM.

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    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    Interesting perspective. Please keep the opinions coming.

    Pete

  8. #8
    I agree with Bren....I understand the need for classes, but I think keeping the classes to a minimum would be best adding classes just to include one car is probably not the best idea. Let the 335 race against the othe 3 series cars....

    Our club runs one of the better autoX events and I think we should do everything in our power to keep it as uncomplicated as possible....

    Besides....Trying to figure out how to move Bobbie up in PAX Rankings next year should be a more important issue! LOL

  9. #9
    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAB IN BLACK M3 View Post
    I agree with Bren....I understand the need for classes, but I think keeping the classes to a minimum would be best adding classes just to include one car is probably not the best idea. Let the 335 race against the othe 3 series cars....

    Our club runs one of the better autoX events and I think we should do everything in our power to keep it as uncomplicated as possible....

    Besides....Trying to figure out how to move Bobbie up in PAX Rankings next year should be a more important issue! LOL
    I just drove Booger's new 335is and I can confidently say that it would absolutely decimate the E36 and E46 3 series cars. The power on the car is phenomenal (see more torque than E46 M3 at low and mid rpm), with virtually no lag. I have no idea what this thing can do up top since it's still in break in period but would venture that the car is as quick as the E46 M3. The argument for the cars additional weight contributing negatively to handling is more or less unfounded as it is easily as fast around turns as the E46 M3. The car is extremely quick and very easy to drive fast as it is forgiving.

    Given the cars' abilities, I believe that in the correct hands this car would destroy the other cars in showroom. I think the 335 is analogous to making the 2002ti compete against the E36 328. It would unbalance the class and I fear the 335 would make novices (who mainly run in showroom) disheartened by the car they have to compete with. Therefore, eroding the environment that we have that encourages novices to participate.

    I think we have 2 options:

    1. To class the 335 cars in showroom M
    2. Stick them in "prepared sport" but this would make the classing rules even more complex than they are now.

    Please discuss,

    Pete

    PS- Bobby, to Pax higher is really quite simple. Drive faster
    That and mod the car, not the driver.
    Last edited by Pete; 12-11-2006 at 10:27 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member bren's Avatar
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    It's good to hear that you have such a finely tuned butt dyno.

  11. #11
    Senior Member AlfaEric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I just drove Booger's new 335is and I can confidently say that it would absolutely decimate the E36 and E46 3 series cars. The power on the car is phenomenal (see more torque than E46 M3 at low and mid rpm), with virtually no lag. I have no idea what this thing can do up top since it's still in break in period but would venture that the car is as quick as the E46 M3. The argument for the cars additional weight contributing negatively to handling is more or less unfounded as it is easily as fast around turns as the E46 M3. The car is extremely quick and very easy to drive fast as it is forgiving.

    Given the cars' abilities, I believe that in the correct hands this car would destroy the other cars in showroom. I think the 335 is analogous to making the 2002ti compete against the E36 328. It would unbalance the class and I fear the 335 would make novices (who mainly run in showroom) disheartened by the car they have to compete with. Therefore, eroding the environment that we have that encourages novices to participate.

    I think we have 2 options:

    1. To class the 335 cars in showroom M
    2. Stick them in "prepared sport" but this would make the classing rules even more complex than they are now.

    Please discuss,

    Pete

    PS- Bobby, to Pax higher is really quite simple. Drive faster
    That and mod the car, not the driver.
    Pete,

    You mention that you feel that the 335 would make novices in showroom feel disheartened... What about any novices who come out with a 335? Wouldn't they feel that way having to drive their unmodified car in Prepared Sport or Showroom M? This would be even worse for them when people start coming out with modified 335s and they are still running stock. If you wish to promote novices more, bring back the novice class (based on PAX).

    BMW is going to (hopefully) keep making faster, better handling cars. The showroom class should be able to adjust simply because people can upclass themselves into their proper class or (over time) are more likely to have made modifications to the car that upclasses them anyway. I've seen unmodified e30s run recently in showroom even though they could do much better if they upclassed themselves into a prepared class. I wouldn't worry so much about having them in showroom, I would be more concerned about where you are going to put them when they have mods.

    ---Eric


    Single handedly lowering the pax for MT

  12. #12
    Senior Member AlfaEric's Avatar
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    Other items to cover:

    Unlimited class: Are we going to keep this?

    Options for MINIs:
    Leave 2 classes (it doesn't seem to be popular and there weren't enough cars)
    Combine to 1 class (regardless of if they have mods or not)
    Place them back in X/XR
    Merge them in with the BMWs (there are going to be a lot of complaints with this one).
    Put them all in Unlimited (and throw the 335's in there just for the heck of it)

    ---Eric


    Single handedly lowering the pax for MT

  13. #13
    Senior Member bren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaEric View Post
    Other items to cover:

    Unlimited class: Are we going to keep this?

    Options for MINIs:
    Leave 2 classes (it doesn't seem to be popular and there weren't enough cars)
    Combine to 1 class (regardless of if they have mods or not)
    Place them back in X/XR
    Merge them in with the BMWs (there are going to be a lot of complaints with this one).
    Put them all in Unlimited (and throw the 335's in there just for the heck of it)

    ---Eric
    I'd leave the unlimited class. Chances are anyone running there isn't all that interested in the NCC autox points chase anyway (I assume you bring it up for lack of competition?)

    I'd gladly take a Cooper S against a 335 on any of the lots used by the NCC.

  14. #14
    Senior Member AlfaEric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bren View Post
    I'd leave the unlimited class. Chances are anyone running there isn't all that interested in the NCC autox points chase anyway (I assume you bring it up for lack of competition?)

    I'd gladly take a Cooper S against a 335 on any of the lots used by the NCC.
    I just thought it is something we should revisit since it was a new class. There were 14 people who drove in that class for the season (only 1 did enough events for points to count). It seemed to be a touchy subject when it was first added but I don't think it worked out that bad. I just wanted to see how other people felt about it.

    ---Eric


    Single handedly lowering the pax for MT

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    I was against the Unlimited class from the beginning even though it would mean less competition for my underpowered E30 M3. Let's look back at the 2006 season and see if this class is necessary:

    April 8 had one entry. It would have been 2nd if running in SSM.

    May 27 had 7 entries, three of them were driving Neil Simon's supercharged M Coupe. I my opinion this is the only car running with our chapter that should be given "Unlimited" status. If these 7 had run in SSM two of them, John V and Neil, would have been 1st and 2nd. The other five would have been below 6th place in SSM. This was the only event Neil's Coupe attended.

    June 18 had 4 entries. One would have been 2nd in SSM, the other three would have been the last three cars in SSM.

    Aug 5 had 4 entries. All of them would have been worse than 8th place in SSM.

    Sept 23 had 1 entry. He would have been last in SSM by 5 seconds.

    Oct 21 had 4 entries. Bud Schreiber would have been 2nd in SSM, another would have been 6th in SSM and the other two would have been the last two cars in SSM.

    Obviously adding aftermarket camshafts doesn't make for a dominating autocross car. In my opinion the class has not been successful or necessary, and again, this is coming from someone who stands to benefit from not having to run against Neil's Coupe.
    Woody
    96 328is, 99 M Coupe, 04 330Ci

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