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Thread: 2007 NCC Driver Schools

                  
   
  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FT View Post
    I hope this discussion helps the chapter in some way. I do not have much to add but to say i do not buy the volunteer, instructor or chief instructor stories. If we can identify the issues, then we are half way to solving them. Since the days I have been involved with the NCC, it never lost money and always had more than know what to do with it. If volunteers is an issue, hire people, pay so called 'volunteers', do something.

    I do not want to offend any one, but it is all in the leadership. If the member based wants more DEs, and that is a big if, then find a way to do it. Dismissing even the effort to find solutions right out of the bat due to lack of volunteers or what ever is not the way to approach it.

    On the other hand, I feel particularly lucky that we live in the metro DC area with several other options
    Boner and Ft,

    Bubbas the chapter needs a coordinator. Why dont both of you volunteer to do it. Then contact VIR, the Glen, Mid Ohio etc to see what the cost is for a weekend and what dates are available. Also why dont you stop by the chief instructor's shop and ask him what he thinks about out of the area schools. Even if you dont volunteer stop by and talk to the chief instructor. Often the chief instructor isnt sure how many instructors he is going to have until a couple weeks before the event. And then he has to match students with instructors. It isnt a random process.

    When I volunteered to be coordinator right after I hit my head I thought about out of the area drivers schools. After I ran my first school the idea faded and after I ran my second school I never gave this idea any consideration again. Running 3-4 schools a year was plenty of work for me. I never heard much talk of amongst the chapter members for out of area schools. Those who wanted to do Mid Ohio, or the Glen did those tracks with other chapters. I did.

    And yeah the chapter used to lose money running schools and then we broke even. Havent checked the treasurer's statements in while but they arent a big money maker. After track rental fees, insurance, corner workers and other expenses the chapter doesnt make a lot on entrance fees.

    Do you all have any idea what it costs to rent Mid Ohio , the Glen or VIR for a three day weekend? I guessing $35 to 40K? Anyone know? Ten years ago 3 day weekend at Summit Point used to cost the Chapter $11K.
    That didnt include insurance which ran about $5k.

    I think you are missing my point if you want out of region schools the members of NCC who want them need to step up to the plate and volunteer and do the work to see if its feasible. Show the board and DSSC that there is enough interest to warrant consideration and what the costs would be.

    Damn I can remember when you could rent Summit Point for $500 a day during the week.

    Schools arent a big deal for most members of the chapter. Maybe a 80 to 100 members do a schools in a year out of what 5000 members. More members do tours I believe.

    Dave Apker

  2. #17
    Senior Member 1996 328ti's Avatar
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    This thread is futile.
    We do a joint school with Audi and Mercedes Benz and we get just enough students to break out even. Why do we do Thursday and Friday? Because every weekend is booked. And if it wasn't before a Mazda school, I wouldn't go. There is no way we could get enough members from our chapter to fill the school. Porsche Zone 2 couldn't do it two years in a row and that was a weekend. Mid-Ohio, let's be realistic, it's 7 hours away. The Glen, GVC has to do weekday schools because the place is so booked and expensive.

    More DEs for us. If anyone thinks we are not serving the needs of our members with 4 schools, email Roy. We have board meetings the 2nd Wednesday of every month. Everyone is invited. All you need to do is contact Roy in advance. We have a DSSC meeting Nov 29 in Tysons Corner. Anyone who wants to go, again contact Roy.
    ...steven
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  3. #18
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    Correct.

    If a reader of this thread wants to influence the Drivers' School program, please come to the DSSC meeting on Wed. Nov. 29 at 2070 Chain Bridge Road, Suite 150, from 7 pm to 9 pm. Be prepared to volunteer in some way to help, as this is an all-volunteer organization. My phone number is 703-851-6017 and I am always happy to talk Club business.
    -Roy Morris
    DSSC Chair; Chapter President
    rmorris@cmgpc.com

  4. #19
    When other chapters do "road trips" they generally employ one or both of two strategies to make the events feasible. One is to augment their instructor corps with those from other chapters (or even other marques). The other is to run a significant number of uninstructed students. Foe example, when NJ or Delaware Valley run at Summit Point, they often call on NCC instructors to help out, or other area instructors who have yet to qualify as NCC instructors. This summer at the Glen, Delaware Valley had 3 students assigned per instructor in many cases, but all A students were "presigned-off" and were uninstructed in most sessions. Neither of these methods is apt to be embraced by NCC. Currently, we have stringent check-out requirements for new instructors that involve the track and skidpad. We also have the lowest sign-off rate of any chapter I have ever run with. So the most likely way to add to schools would be pooling with other chapters and/or marques, but remaining separate from standard NCC schools.

  5. #20
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    There is a reason for our procedures. NCC has less incidents than most other chapters.

    It is interesting that folks who complain about NCCs drivers schools there arent enough, they want out of area schools or complain about registering and notification when challenged never step up to the plate and volunteer to help out. My experience is very few if any of the complainers or whiners ever volunteer to help.

    A suggestion for out of area schools would be to have the drivers work corners and it should be mandatory. No work no track time.

    Dave Apker

  6. #21
    Senior Member FT's Avatar
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    Dave, quite that volunteer stuff dude, I did my tour of duty to the chapter for two years; you are making assumptions and generalizations and accusing without any basis. Either state your opinion about the 'issue' or just keep your personalized thoughts to yourself.
    Fatih

  7. #22
    Senior Member 1996 328ti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FT View Post
    Dave, quite that volunteer stuff dude, I did my tour of duty to the chapter for two years; you are making assumptions and generalizations and accusing without any basis. Either state your opinion about the 'issue' or just keep your personalized thoughts to yourself.
    I have to agree with FT on this one. The volunteer card is getting old.
    ...steven
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  8. #23
    Senior Member jkuper's Avatar
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    Dave, I apologize in advance since I don't know the history of NCC dating back to 80s, but aside from this message board, what is your involvement with the club now?


    -- Jason

  9. #24
    Senior Member SharkD's Avatar
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    From a discussion on Bimmerforums:
    Quote Originally Posted by 1996 328ti
    This just came up last night at our meeting.
    For us, equal will mean equal. Same brand seat, left and right, same belts, left and right. Same harness mounting points, left and right. I'd like to have our wording read, equal or better for the instructor. No instructor has to get into a car that he or she does not feel comfortable in. It doesn't matter if that student sits on the grid all day waiting for an instructor. Our admissions policy will be in black and white.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1996 328ti
    Quote Originally Posted by leggwork
    Steven,
    exactly equal restaints and seats is pretty over the top - what is the rationale for being this strict?
    It would seem that you could trust the tech steward to assess comparable safety without mandating exactly the same. Heck, lots of instructor cars won't pass this test.
    Our tech consists of a few volunteers who are also students. Our schools are relatively small and we really don't have anyone that knowledgable. Nothing is cut in stone, but as you can see, equal has various interpretations. Maybe at the next DEC conference it could be spelled out in black and white?
    Steven, is this really the case for the 2007 NCC schools? If so, I agree with Bruce that the interpretation is too strict. (Had I known that this would be a topic of discussion, I would have driven the 5+ hours to attend the meeting.)

    In my case, I have two different-brand race seats in my E30, (a recaro and a corbeau) and I was planning on buying a 5-year FIA cert 6-point Schroth for my driver's side and a 2-year SFI cert 6-point G-Force for the passenger side (to replace a pair of 2-year old 6-point G-Forces). I don't see why I can't provide equal protection with different brands, so long as the certifications are up-to-date (a much more important factor than brand, IMHO).
    Last edited by SharkD; 12-02-2006 at 04:04 PM.

  10. #25
    Senior Member 1996 328ti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharkD View Post
    don't see why I can't provide equal protection with different brands, so long as the certifications are up-to-date (a much more important factor than brand, IMHO).
    I don't know how it will worded.
    We need to be able to define equal. In plain black and white. I knew I should have stayed out of that one.

    Currently our admissions policy doesn't officially talk about seats.

    Cars must be insured, street-legal, quiet, and must have passenger seats. Functional, securely attached lap and shoulder belts are required for both front seats. The front seats must have equal restraint systems available (e.g., if the driver has a five-point harness, the passenger must have a five-point harness as well). Performance-enhancing modifications and R-compound (racing) tires inhibit learning and are strongly discouraged. If roll bars or cages are installed, they must be fully padded above the level of the front door window sills.

    I believe the concern is that a student can show up with a nice, adjustable Recaro and the instructor gets an aluminum shell bolted to the floor. They are both racing seats. People have different interpretations of being equal.
    Nothing is set in stone and the wording will be fair to the driver and instructor.
    Last edited by 1996 328ti; 12-02-2006 at 06:34 PM.
    ...steven
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  11. #26
    Senior Member SharkD's Avatar
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    I entirely understand what you're getting at -- the standards need to be safe, unambiguous and easy to implement.

    I can imagine that far worse than the student who shows up with the kirkey bolted to the floor is the one who's still running an OEM passenger seat and a 5- or 6-point harness. That said, I've experienced a fair amount of "unequal" equipment in instructor cars, including a driver's side race shell and a stock passenger seat, with 5-point belts.

    I also believe that equipment certifications need to be checked for expiration -- not just the helmet certs.

    Perhaps the solution would be to allow the instructor the right to refuse to ride in the student's car if he/she deems, before the first session of the day, that the safety equipment is unequal or unsatisfactory from a functional standpoint (and the student has the right to appeal once, to the chief instructor, before the start of the second session). (And make it perfectly clear to the student, before the school, that it's his/her responsibility to ensure equal equipment and that if the instructor's refusal is upheld, they're SOL for the weekend unless they feel like fixing the issues with a trip to the OG store.)
    Last edited by SharkD; 12-03-2006 at 12:02 AM.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Scotty's Avatar
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    Is there a schedule published somewhere for the 2007 schools? Between NASA HPDE, BMWCCA, and the new SCCA PDX, I need to start sorting out the season.
    Scott Lowrey

  13. #28
    Senior Member 1996 328ti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotty View Post
    Is there a schedule published somewhere for the 2007 schools? Between NASA HPDE, BMWCCA, and the new SCCA PDX, I need to start sorting out the season.
    I have had our tentative schedule posted for a few days now.
    http://www.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?driving_schools
    The schedule is always subject to change.
    Last edited by 1996 328ti; 12-11-2006 at 09:56 PM.
    ...steven
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