Rules Changes for 05

[woodym3]

a) I suggested allowing wider wheels with STREET TIRES ONLY in Prepared class. As it is, I can't run stock wheels on an M3 with street tires and ST mods. I agree that R-comps should be run on stock wheels as per SCCA Stock Class rules. But allow at least STOCK wheel widths and tires for "ST Class" STREET TIRED vehicles.

The current rules say "Any wheels" but it also states the cars must be either SCCA Stock (with R-comps) or SCCA ST (with street tires) legal, which limits the cars to 7 inch wheels and 225 section tires in ST. So virtually all SS cars cannot run as "ST" cars with stock wheels.

Terry,
I wish Kevin would step in here, but I don't think the rules intend for M3s or any car to be limited to less than OE wheel size. Saying our Prepared class is limited to mods allowed in the SCCA's ST class was not intended to include the 7" wide wheels. Of course, this is just my opinion. Who at the autocross told you your car had to be considered Modified?
Woody

[John V]

Terry, I see your complaint now. The rule for prepared reads:

"Or, if it is has no more than the following mods, it can run here using R-Compounds: Any wheels..."

but no such allowance is made for cars running street tires. Stupid. That should be changed.

If it will make life any easier, I officially forfeit all my trophies for this year and will give them to the X and XR class drivers. I really don't care.

I have given thought to having a more inclusive non-BMW class structure. I personally am fine with it but it is going to be difficult to make everyone happy. We cannot and will not have individual SCCA classing because classes would frequently be populated by one car. I also am not in favor of eliminating the BMW specific classes or allowing non BMWs into them.

We could, theoretically, have a three or four tiered system. Fast cars on R-comps (FCR), slow cars on R-comps (SCR), Fast cars on street tires (FCS) and slow cars on street tires (SCS), and make these classes inclusive of any mods. So the 'vettes, STis, S2000s, Purple Camaros on R-comps would be in the FCR class. The civics, focuses (Foci?) would be in SCS... etc. I seriously, seriously doubt anyone is going to build a car to dominate at our NCC autocrosses...

John

[hoyabmw]

I just got informed of the discussion going on here (way too much other stuff going on for me to keep up with everything!)

The Prepared class rules were intended to allow stock wheels on ST prep cars (ignoring that provision of the ST rules--If you can't tell, I haven't REALLY read thru them since I run DSP.)

Showroom's intent was that you could replace stock shocks with aftermarket equivalents due to them wearing out. It's a fact of life of driving cars, and there is no reason to force people to stick with the stock Boge for replacement just to get into the stock class. The same could be said of brakes and tires--Azenis are allowed since they're streets, but they are arguably just barely not R comps. Any brake pad is allowed, the belief being that when replacing pads, most people get fed up with the dusting and get something non stock--this could allow race pads if someone chose. If someone skirts the rules and starts running full custom bilsteins, then we can deal with it. It's a tradeoff to try to get new blood into the sport without them feeling that they have to spend a bunch of money.

X class...we split it, and noone seems to be really registering in the XR class. I'm not at home to be able to check the computers, but the last event was the first where there was more than 1 car in XR. If there appears to be a GOOD way to break X up better (into no more than 3 groups due to participation levels), I would be willing to hear it.

The classes were restructured this year with the intent of trying to get relatively similar cars running together, and get the class attendance balanced. Last year there were 2 classes that never had more than 3 attendees. This year all the classes seem to have relatively even participation levels.

From what people are saying, it really sounds like the only solution is a points structure like Golden Gate uses (and they still only have 2 X classes!) I don't want to do this because the administration is a NIGHTMARE! Every car has to have a base point value, and every mod as well (if you look at GGC, the mods have different values based on the car!)

I do have a slightly clarified rules document, I just haven't had a chance to get it finalized and posted. It would clear up some of the questions about wheels, etc.

I'm glad to see the discussions, and I'm sure tweaks will have to be made. I don't like the idea that I have to run against Sheridan, but I have to everywhere I run, so I deal with it.

Kevin

[Pinecone]

Terry,
I wish Kevin would step in here, but I don't think the rules intend for M3s or any car to be limited to less than OE wheel size. Saying our Prepared class is limited to mods allowed in the SCCA's ST class was not intended to include the 7" wide wheels. Of course, this is just my opinion. Who at the autocross told you your car had to be considered Modified?
Woody

[/quote]

Nobody told me, I just read the rules and they say no more than ST mods, which limit the wheels to 7". If that is not the intent, then they should say it.

This is like the Stock class SCCA deal we talked about before the season. The original text of the rules forced Stock class cars with a frront sway bar change all the way to Mod. That got changed.

BTW if the intent to allow M3s stock wheels with street tires and ST suspension mods can I reclassify myself for the last event?

Difference between 7th and 4th. SSM to SSP.

[Pinecone]

I just got informed of the discussion going on here (way too much other stuff going on for me to keep up with everything!)

The Prepared class rules were intended to allow stock wheels on ST prep cars (ignoring that provision of the ST rules--If you can't tell, I haven't REALLY read thru them since I run DSP.)

Showroom's intent was that you could replace stock shocks with aftermarket equivalents due to them wearing out. It's a fact of life of driving cars, and there is no reason to force people to stick with the stock Boge for replacement just to get into the stock class. The same could be said of brakes and tires--Azenis are allowed since they're streets, but they are arguably just barely not R comps. Any brake pad is allowed, the belief being that when replacing pads, most people get fed up with the dusting and get something non stock--this could allow race pads if someone chose. If someone skirts the rules and starts running full custom bilsteins, then we can deal with it. It's a tradeoff to try to get new blood into the sport without them feeling that they have to spend a bunch of money.

X class...we split it, and noone seems to be really registering in the XR class. I'm not at home to be able to check the computers, but the last event was the first where there was more than 1 car in XR. If there appears to be a GOOD way to break X up better (into no more than 3 groups due to participation levels), I would be willing to hear it.

The classes were restructured this year with the intent of trying to get relatively similar cars running together, and get the class attendance balanced. Last year there were 2 classes that never had more than 3 attendees. This year all the classes seem to have relatively even participation levels.

From what people are saying, it really sounds like the only solution is a points structure like Golden Gate uses (and they still only have 2 X classes!) I don't want to do this because the administration is a NIGHTMARE! Every car has to have a base point value, and every mod as well (if you look at GGC, the mods have different values based on the car!)

I do have a slightly clarified rules document, I just haven't had a chance to get it finalized and posted. It would clear up some of the questions about wheels, etc.

I'm glad to see the discussions, and I'm sure tweaks will have to be made. I don't like the idea that I have to run against Sheridan, but I have to everywhere I run, so I deal with it.

Kevin

Cool, so a simple clarification will take care of the Prepared class deal. Works for me. A little too late for last event though.

The thing that still bothers me is that basic SA Konis are normally considered a replacement shock. It just seems to me that they offer no real performance difference and should not be excluded from stock.

X I leave to the "experts"

[Pinecone]

Terry, I see your complaint now. The rule for prepared reads:

"Or, if it is has no more than the following mods, it can run here using R-Compounds: Any wheels..."

but no such allowance is made for cars running street tires. Stupid. That should be changed.

John

Thanks for the support. At least the last event I can say you beat me because you were running Ho-hos and I was running Kumho 712s.

Maybe I will keep running that way, less excuses for why a SCCA Stcok class car beats my BSP car on similar tires.

[FT]

The only way I can see being "inclusive" of X cars and not make it an administrative nightmare is to include them into existing classes with the mix of BMWs. Since there aren't many X cars currently, IMHO, that should not be much of a problem.

For example:

- Super Sport: Includes all M cars, except M6. Hence, let's include all AS and BS non-Bimmers into Super Sport

- Sport: include regular E30, E36, E46, E28, E34, etc.; so let's include DS, ES, FS classes into Sport.

Same thing with Touring, what ever the SCCA classes correspond to those BMWs. If an non-Bimmer does not fall into any of those classes, then they'll fall under X and XR.

Then within the same rules, let's apply Prepared and Modified classes to X cars that have modifications.

To me this makes a lot of sense, no additional classes introduced, more cars in each class, more members served... but obviously I am seem to be quite alone on the BMW camp supporting a mix

[Doby]

So then non-bmw's would be in the same classes as the bmw's in the bmw club and would be taking the bmw club trophies away from the bmw club member's that are driving bmw's in the bmw club autoxes?

[Doby]

I wanted to drive my wife's car at a couple autoxes and so I signed up for the council events. I still drive my bmw in the NCC autoxes. I don't buy the mixing of makes...

[woodym3]

[quote="FT"]The only way I can see being "inclusive" of X cars and not make it an administrative nightmare is to include them into existing classes with the mix of BMWs. Since there aren't many X cars currently, IMHO, that should not be much of a problem.

Fatih,
I have to disagree on this. In my opinion the chapter autocrosses are for competition among BMWs. I know some chapter members such as yourself autocross other makes, but I think BMWs should have prioriety on registration until a certain time and hopefully some day the events will be all BMWs (again).

Starting at the beginning of the season our X car participants have been 25, 22, 32, 30, and 34. At the last event there were 40-some X cars pre-registered. I think this is a disturbing trend. I wonder how many BMW drivers are being shut out?

As long as there are X cars competing, don't make it work for the scorers to administer the results. To even out the Focus vs Corvette competition, the obvious answer is using SCCA PAX. But I think that it too much to ask of the scorer(s). And I'll bet some X car drivers at our events don't even know what SCCA class they fit into.

I say if someone wants the seat time available at a BMW event, let them live with the fact they're competing against all manner of cars.

Some people have asked about a class for Minis. We had a whopping 6 at the Aug 28 event, and 4 at the last one. Do you think a stock Mini on its all-season tires will like competing again a modified S with R tires? There is an active Mini club in the area. They don't do autocrosses (yet).
Until then. . . .

I've rambled enough. Time for another Guinness.
Woody

[1996 328ti]

The only people who might get shut out are non NCC members. NCC members get priority registration no matter what car they bring. We even check membership numbers to ensure our members get first crack.

[Pinecone]

I agree, putting the X cars into the mix with the BMWs will mean that in some classes the BMWs will suffer. And it IS a BMW club.

As for priority, I think the current system of members first is enough. If plenty of members want to run other than BMWs then so be it.

At the most I would figure a few splits of X, or even Paxing (doesn't the timing/scoring program do that already?)

[FT]

I have known most of these views for some time, and I know I am on up hill. I will not be making a big push for the X cars to be mixed with BMWs, because at the end, it is not worth it. However, I thought I should at least once try to get something accross: it is a "BMW owner's club", and if you insist on otherwise, please check club documentation on this.

Woody - as Steven has mentioned, we never leave out any club members out of autocrosses; frankly no matter when they send in their registration, even last minute. However, if you want to change that to "BMW drivers" regardless of membership status, that's is different matter.

[John V]

Fatih, regardless of what the documentation says there is at least a perception (correct or not) that we are a "BMW club." As such the classes are going to be focused on BMW cars and are going to alienate those club members who choose to drive something else at the events.

There really is no fair way to accomodate both schools of thought (WRT having specific BMW classes, or combining the non BMWs in them). If you look at how any of the other BMW club events are run (or Porsche club events, or any other marque-specific events) the classing structure always breaks down the marque's cars into classes that exclude the non-marque cars.

I agree and disagree with Woody. I would love to see more BMWs at our events, but at the same time nobody is being excluded. If we restricted the events to members-only we would have much lower participation. Even folks who walk up to our events are not turned away, at least I do not know of an instance of this happening.

At the same time, we try to promote a very laid back and fun but safe atmosphere for autocrossing and so that attracts non-member participants. I think this is a good thing! If we get to the point that we have to start turning people away, we will have to structure registration so that it is the non-members (not the non-BMW driving members, mind you FT ) that are turned away. That is the focus of the club.

John V

[woodym3]

Woody - as Steven has mentioned, we never leave out any club members out of autocrosses; frankly no matter when they send in their registration, even last minute. However, if you want to change that to "BMW drivers" regardless of membership status, that's is different matter.[/quote]

Steven and Fatih,
I wasn't talking about non-members shutting out members, I was talking about members with X cars shutting out members with BMWs. I realize it's first come, first serve (for members) and that's probably the way it should be for now. I would just hate to see the day when members with X cars outnumber members with BMWs at our autocrosses. With the difficulty getting in SCCA and Council events, more and more outsiders are realizing they can pay $35 for a BMW club membership and autocross their X car at our events. They have no great love for BMWs and that is fine. They are playing by our current rules. And some will see the light - Eric Wong moving from Corvette to M3 being an example. Fatih, when you say this is a "club for BMW owners", are you saying a driver of an X car should be required to also own a BMW? That is not a requirement for membership (unlike PCA).
Woody