Rules Changes for 05

[FT]

Fatih, when you say this is a "club for BMW owners", are you saying a driver of an X car should be required to also own a BMW? That is not a requirement for membership (unlike PCA).
Woody

I am proud of our club for the fact that we do not require BMW ownership for membership, and I do hope that never changes.

However, on the same line of thought, we have to apply the same principle to the individual programs we support, autocross is one of them. There should not be a gray area or "perception," We either draw the line and say you have to have a BMW to become a member, or you can become a member no matter what car you own and you will have the exact same priviledges as any other member. It just cannot be both ways IMO.

We are supposed to promote BMW ownership, I don't agree that forcing X cars to their own littel insignificant class is the way to do it; we should be doing the opposite. I believe our current policies are viewed as double standard. "Please pay the same fee for membership as BMW owners, but you will be classed in a lower bracket in the membership totem pole; that's just the way it is." And think of the Mini drivers, X class for Minis??? That is even worse than trying to get my WRX into MSS.

[bren]

FT, I understand where you are coming from but I think for you an autox is more about the competition and less about having fun and learning what your car can do.....as such I think maybe you have just outgrown the principle of the NCC autox's.

[John V]

I guess that's what it comes down to. Are we going to these events because we want a piece of hardware or because we want to have fun?

That said, FT, I don't see any reason why your car should have a problem winning the X class every event, so I don't think the class needs to be restructured. Is the problem that there is no X-class hardware? If so, I was dead serious about giving you my hardware every time you win X class. I really could care less about it and having a condo I have no place to put any of it anyway!

John

[FT]

I guess that's what it comes down to. Are we going to these events because we want a piece of hardware or because we want to have fun?

That said, FT, I don't see any reason why your car should have a problem winning the X class every event, so I don't think the class needs to be restructured. Is the problem that there is no X-class hardware? If so, I was dead serious about giving you my hardware every time you win X class. I really could care less about it and having a condo I have no place to put any of it anyway!

John

I cannot believe this what you and Bren gather from my messages.

[John V]

FT, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not accusing you of only wanting a piece of hardware. I was asking the question generally.

All I am saying is this: You are in a unique circumstance of owning a BMW, being a member of the club, and yet choosing to not autocross your BMW. I don't think there is anyone else in that situation right now. If you don't care about the hardware and all you want is to compete directly with the other cars in your SCCA class, well, you can do that! The times for all of us are listed in the results, so you can directly compare how you're doing relative to Doby, Jack, Eric, Sean, Glenn, Tyler...

Look at it this way. If all of us owned corvettes and chose to autocross our corvettes at the autocross, would we expect the club to accomodate a class that is only corvettes? That just doesn't make much sense to me. Actually, with the direction that BMW is taking their cars, it would not surprise me if we all moved to Corvettes in the future... :cry:

I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you want. :?:

[woodym3]

[quote="FT"][
However, on the same line of thought, we have to apply the same principle to the individual programs we support, autocross is one of them. There should not be a gray area or "perception," We either draw the line and say you have to have a BMW to become a member, or you can become a member no matter what car you own and you will have the exact same priviledges as any other member. It just cannot be both ways IMO.

Fatih,
At one time we only allowed BMWs in our driver schools. The chapter president wanted to drive his 944 at one event instead of his 5-series, but was not allowed to do so. Things are better now.

Some members don't understand why they can't drive their SUV or convertible in a driver school, figuring they paid the same dues as any other member. They don't want to hear it's a safety issue because XYZ car club allows them.

Not that it has anything to do with our policies, but I don't know of any other chapter that has more than a single X class for non-BMWs, although some now have a Mini class or mix Minis with BMWs.
Woody

[bren]

All I am saying is this: You are in a unique circumstance of owning a BMW, being a member of the club, and yet choosing to not autocross your BMW. I don't think there is anyone else in that situation right now.

Don't forget Clyde, er Jeremy, uh Cliff...whatever you call him these days

[Pinecone]

All I am saying is this: You are in a unique circumstance of owning a BMW, being a member of the club, and yet choosing to not autocross your BMW. I don't think there is anyone else in that situation right now.

Don't forget Clyde, er Jeremy, uh Cliff...whatever you call him these days

The RX-8 guy, that will work.

I agree with most posters, that this a BWM club event, and primarily for BMWs, and that we allow people to run whatever they want, within the structure of the rules.

After some thought, the only thing I can see doing is charge more and do double trophying, NNC classes and SCCA classes, and only give a trophy based on x participation in a class. But all that gives is hardware, and we all know what everyone really suns for is bragging rights.

[Doby]

I think the bottom line is that unless an extremely simple plan is come up with to break up the X class(es) into more classes AND keep them seperate from the BMW classes, there will be nothing changed regarding that.

I guess I'm still confused here as they why more classes are needed. We run in the PCA autoxes in a "Non-Porsche" class. I've never felt the need to complain about it... it's a Porsche club and it's not the SCCA or BMWCCA. Why are they needed?

Hell, we show up at the PCA events and take FTD and top times, and they don't care and seem to love to take our money. I think people should be thankfull that we aren't too good to not want their money. (bad way of putting that - but I think my point is in there somewhere)

[clyde]

To add my two cents (I really need to check this board more frequently than I have been...)...

In a nutshell, although a little different, my thoughts are pretty similar to Woody's. All contrary justifications considered, it's a BMW club and I believe that it should begin and end there.

I think that all non-BMWs should be grouped together. I'd rather not even see the current distinction made between street and R tires. If that means that I have to compete on street tires in my RX-8 against Fatih's Hoosier shod STi, Mark's Z06 and Alex's 911 no matter what tires they use, so be it. I have no problems with that. I'm not sure that I like what I'm hearing about no trophy for X class this year, though... :sad: :evil:

The one exception I would make is WRT MINIs for two reasons. First, based just on numbers, their turnout seems to warrant a MINI class (maybe even split between S/non-S models). Second, although different, it's still a BMW product. The second reason isn't something that I really a point to arguing because there are as many valid reasons one one side of it as there are the other.

Something that hasn't been addressed in this thread that I think needs some consideration is how the entire local autocrossing scene has developed in the past few years and how it may affect the future. Participation in events hosted by all the local clubs has gone up dramatically. The local SCCA events fill up in minutes. There's still some slack in the Council event registration, but those fill up a lot faster than they did two years ago. As I understand it, for the first time we've actually had to turn away people at one or two NCC events this year.

The SCCA events at FedEx will probably sell a lot more subscriptions for 2005 which will result in even fewer open slots available per event. They are fully saturated and aren't going to be able to absorb many newcomers on a regular basis. At the same time, Rosecroft's future is as unclear as ever. If the facility is sold and/or slots are legalized, and the Council loses the lot, the people that compete there are going to be looking for another place to play as well.

Everything seems to point to further interest in NCC events from the local autocross community, BMW drivers or not, Club members or not. PCA may be able to meet some of that demand if they host events closer to DC than Ripken, but much of it will likley spill over on us.

We need a registration priority system that can deal with it in case demand regularly exceeds capacity next year, and we need it before the start of next season.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see the bumping order go something like this (highest pirority first):

1) Club members driving BMWs
2) Club members driving non-BMWs
3) Non-Club members driving BMWs
4) Non-Club members driving non-BMWs

(and in my perfect world, I would include MINIs in the BMW distinction for registration purposes)

If my doomsday scenario were to come to pass, there's going to be a lot of griping about X class. To that, I would say f'em.

Before making an effort at even considering the non-BMW issues, I'd rather see finer granularity between the BMWs if partipation numbers are high enough to support it. If possible I'd like to see E36 323/325s not having to compete with 328s and E46 323/325s not having to compete with 328/330s (at least in the "Stock" classes) and so forth. In the end, though, classing decisions are always going to screw some people.

Sorry to ramble so long...

clyde
jeremy
cliff
the RX-8 driving guy

[Doby]

No Mini class because Mini's are not BMW's. So that would mean that Mini's (a non-BMW) would have their own class in the BMW autoxes.

[clyde]

No Mini class because Mini's are not BMW's. So that would mean that Mini's (a non-BMW) would have their own class in the BMW autoxes.

Like I said:

although different, it's still a BMW product.

Also, like I said, there's little point debating it. You fall on one side or the other and both sides have valid arguments.

[Doby]

mini =/= bmw ask anyone that owns both. It's kinda like a Jaguar club allowing Mustangs in... they use the same engines...

It's a can of worms to give Mini their own class. It wouldn't be hard though.

[clyde]

mini =/= bmw ask anyone that owns both. It's kinda like a Jaguar club allowing Mustangs in... they use the same engines...

MINI is to BMW =/= Jaguar is to Ford

Not saying that MINIs are more BMW than Jags are Fords, only that it's not an apples to apples comparison.

Take it further and I'm going to have to grow a mustache for the next autocross and then violate your personal space by standing right next to you all day and reaching over you about once every two minutes. :-P

[1996 328ti]

I own both. I don't care what Mini owners say. A Mini is not a BMW.
I could see taking Minis out of X if there were enough to trophy.
But what is next, a Rolls Royce class?