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Thread: Rules Changes for 05

                  
   
  1. #1

    Rules Changes for 05

    I figured I would throw this out now to start discussion. A couple of rules changes for next year (more like rules tweaks).

    1) Allow any shock in Stock class with the exception of remote resevoir or more than 2 adjustments. The reason I propose this is that there little gains by going with an adjustable shock versus a Bilstein. aAnd considering you can get custom valved Bilsteins, someone who really wants to play hard will spend a LOT more than a set of Konis. I would accept reducing it to single adjustable only, but don't see that much of a difference.

    2) Allow stock sized rims on street tired Prepared class cars. Currently the rules allow ST prepared cars to run street tires in Prepared class. The problem is ST allows a 7 inch rim and 225 section tires. Most SS class cars have larger rims and tires from the factory.

    The ST class rules allow most of the mods used in an SP car other than the rim size and R-comps.

    For example, Sept 12, I ran street tires on my LTW (long story). Due to the rules I had to run SSM due to the stock 7.5" fronts, 8.5" rears. On the other hand several people in SSP were running stock 7.5/8.5 or even 8/9 rims, with as large of R-comps they could fit.

    I think the option to run a M car on street tires with stock rims sizes should be allowed to run P if desired. Of course the individual must take into account the series poins if they are running the entire series when doing so.

    Just a coouple of thoughts to get things started early.
    Terry Carraway
    02 Topaz E46 M3 SMG
    00 Dakar M Roadster
    95 Alpine E36 M3 LTW
    SCCA Spec Racer Ford Red/White

  2. #2
    Wheels are already "free" in Prepared. Yes, it's stock class rules OR ST class rules, but there is a proviso that wheels are "free."

    Showroom class is showroom class, you can't change anything.

    John

  3. #3
    What I think needs to be addressed is the "Modified" class - it covers too broad a range of cars.

    SCCA Street Prepared cars are outgunned by SCCA Prepared & Mod class cars, yet these cars are grouped together in CCA events.

  4. #4
    We discussed this last year. Here are my thoughts.

    If we split the modified class into two classes, participation in at least one of the classes would suffer. For instance: We could have modified and super modified. Modified would be Street Prepared rules. Super modified would be for prepared and modified (incl. street modified) class rules - ones with gutted interiors, significant lightening, power adders, etc.

    How many cars would be in Super modified? Not many... Doby's, Bud and Austin's plus Neil's. I dunno. Makes more sense to me to have those cars in Modified. You guys are always pretty close to one another.

    Now, having wheels be free in Prepared makes no sense to me... wider wheels with R-comps are going to make more of a difference than shocks, exhaust, software (all the other stuff allowed in Prepared). Prepared should be SCCA Stock or SCCA SP rules with no wheel/tire width restriction. Either you do all the suspension stuff, wheels, etc, or you do shocks, front bar and r-comps. That's it.

    John


    Anyway

  5. #5
    Senior Member Doby's Avatar
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    All of the questions here were discussed at the classing meeting prior to the start of the season. Not everyone will be happy with all of the classes, but these rules make the majority happy. And as far as someone spending money on larger wheels for NCC events only... no comment needed.

    The Mod cars (me, Neil, and the Father-Son kunfo duo) are the only ones that would be in an "unlimited" class and that was discussed too. Neil doesn't make every event, and I missed 2 this year. The blue car will be set-up for the track and won't be the best autox car anyway eventually. There just isn't enough cars/participation to have a class like that.

    The non-adjustable shock rule (which I wasn't in agreement with) probably needs to be changed to allow Koni SA's, but we'll see how that goes after the season.

    This classing structure is totally new, and tweaks will need to be made, and that was known. The people in charge will try to make things as fair as possible. And short of paying people not to show up, there will always be ringers in every class. (Johnny 5, Bill "Ama be out here" Brochu, Mr Ty, Kevin "Mr suspension patience" Henry, James "Wide Track" Sheridan, THE WONGer, Bud "I do it sideways" Schreiber, Mark "Big C5" Rebano, etc)

  6. #6
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    I'm in total agreement with Doby. Most of these issues were discussed when the rules changes were being finalized. We can't make everyone happy, but we try to make the vast majority happy. These are new rules and we expect that there will be changes.

    I'm very glad to see discussion started early and in an open forum.

    Let's keep doing this and we'll probably have some kind of informal meeting (like we did earlier this year) were we invite people to gather and have another discussion of the rules.

    Something to keep in mind. Look at how close some of the class comptitions are running. Also look at the times people are turning in (very close).

    There has been (and continues to be) a lot of support for the "stock is stock" class. If we let in single adjustable shocks, why not let in plus-1 wheels, or the cold air intake? It's a tough call.
    Rafael Garces
    NCC Street Survival Coordinator
    NCC Past President (2003-2005)
    '16 BMW 340i - Estoril Blue, M-Sport, Track Handling Package
    '13 Porsche Boxster S, Amaranth Red

  7. #7
    a) I suggested allowing wider wheels with STREET TIRES ONLY in Prepared class. As it is, I can't run stock wheels on an M3 with street tires and ST mods. I agree that R-comps should be run on stock wheels as per SCCA Stock Class rules. But allow at least STOCK wheel widths and tires for "ST Class" STREET TIRED vehicles.

    The current rules say "Any wheels" but it also states the cars must be either SCCA Stock (with R-comps) or SCCA ST (with street tires) legal, which limits the cars to 7 inch wheels and 225 section tires in ST. So virtually all SS cars cannot run as "ST" cars with stock wheels.

    b) Showroom already allows aftermarket shocks, but not Konis since they are adjustable. Since I could instead, spend a LOT more money on custom valved Bilsteins and stay in Showroom, I don't think that makes sense. It also penalizes someone new who put new shocks on their car and picked Konis and now has to run Prepared. I don't see where single adjustable Konis offer a significant performance advantage over Bilstein HD shocks in an otherwise Stock car. Since I don't run this clas, I don't care, I was just offering my thoughts.

    c) As for this having been discussed last year, fine, but after a year of running, it is time to start thinking of where we go from here.

    d) As for a Super Modified, until there are a number of cars doing this, I don't care if they run in M where I normally run. But if enough people don't like this, there could either be a SINGLE SM class (sort of like BMW CCA Club Racing) or they could run in X class and compete against others in their SCCA classing.
    Terry Carraway
    02 Topaz E46 M3 SMG
    00 Dakar M Roadster
    95 Alpine E36 M3 LTW
    SCCA Spec Racer Ford Red/White

  8. #8
    Senior Member Doby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinecone
    a) I suggested allowing wider wheels with STREET TIRES ONLY in Prepared class. As it is, I can't run stock wheels on an M3 with street tires and ST mods. I agree that R-comps should be run on stock wheels as per SCCA Stock Class rules. But allow at least STOCK wheel widths and tires for "ST Class" STREET TIRED vehicles.

    The current rules say "Any wheels" but it also states the cars must be either SCCA Stock (with R-comps) or SCCA ST (with street tires) legal, which limits the cars to 7 inch wheels and 225 section tires in ST. So virtually all SS cars cannot run as "ST" cars with stock wheels.
    I think the spirit of the rule was to allow the different wheels, but it was easier to use the SCCA rules to clarify things. I’m sure this can be adjusted to allow big rimzzz as well.

    b) Showroom already allows aftermarket shocks, but not Konis since they are adjustable. Since I could instead, spend a LOT more money on custom valved Bilsteins and stay in Showroom, I don't think that makes sense. It also penalizes someone new who put new shocks on their car and picked Konis and now has to run Prepared. I don't see where single adjustable Konis offer a significant performance advantage over Bilstein HD shocks in an otherwise Stock car. Since I don't run this clas, I don't care, I was just offering my thoughts.
    I agree with you on the SA’s but who is their right mind is going to have their bilsteins custom valved for NCC autoxes? If someone does, then more power to them. And as far as not caring… you made the point about the rule. Relax it’s NCC autox and the rules will be tweaked before next year.

    c) As for this having been discussed last year, fine, but after a year of running, it is time to start thinking of where we go from here.
    Yes, as soon as the season is actually over, the rules tweaking will have to be started. It’s good to have an open discussion about them, and I’m sure we’ll have another meeting. It’s funny that a lot of people are complaining about the rules, but we they were invited to be a part of the rule making process, they didn’t show up. I went to the meeting so I could complain because I was there.

    d) As for a Super Modified, until there are a number of cars doing this, I don't care if they run in M where I normally run. But if enough people don't like this, there could either be a SINGLE SM class (sort of like BMW CCA Club Racing) or they could run in X class and compete against others in their SCCA classing.
    Not going to happen until there are enough cars to warrant a class like this.


    NCC Autocross is all about having fun and learning more about your car. When people start trying to protest things and rules get so tight that it’s hard to class cars, then the gracious volunteers that run the show start to think twice about giving up a lot of their free time to put on the show. There will be little tweaks to the rules and there will be a lot of things different next year… hopefully everything will be as good… if not better then right now. Enjoy the ride…

  9. #9
    Senior Member FT's Avatar
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    Well I'll add my issue here as well, since I could not voice my concerns last year as I had to miss the meeting.

    It is incomprehensible to me and takes away from my enthusiasm about the club when all non-BMW cars are thrown into X or XR classes and with a policy that does not award a trophy for neither.

    I do not buy the argument that "this is a BMW club." It is NOT. Last time I check our charter and mission it was still considered "BMW Owner's Club." As a BMW owner I prefer to autocross with my other non-Bimmer for what ever reasons. This should not preclude that I cannot compete against/with other enthusiasts whom I been friends with for the last two years. This is an autocross program and should be inclusive if it is to fulfill its mission of offering safe environment that promotes better driving skills in a competitive environment. I remember Raf preaching to this couple of time in db and other venues; that has to be turned into action.

    The interest levels are steadily increasing for area autocrosses and the autocross program is one of the few programs that sustains itself financially. I do not see any reason to alieniate the non-Bimmer drivers with these policies.

    I also urge you to consider my thoughts as a collective voice of non-BMW drivers as I have had countless conversations personally and over the e-mail on this regard.

    I do understand that we have no obligations to accommodate non-members; however, as long as our membership policy allows for non-BMW owners to become club members, we have an obligation to accomodate the members; and I am one of them.

    Sincerely,
    Fatih

  10. #10
    Senior Member Doby's Avatar
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    Fatih, come up with a classing structure that is easy to use and propose it.

    There were 34 non-bmw's at the last NCC BMW CCA event, which was the most this year, but as little as 22 at other events.

    I thought of using a displacement type of classing structure like they use in BMWCCA Club racing and anything F/I'd is multiplied by 1.5 (IIRC). But there are really not enough cars to make a true classing structure with only a possible of 22 showing up.

    The other thing is that it really is a BMW owner's club... but how many of the non-bmw's are actual club memebers? PCA does the same thing and doesn't even have the r-comp class. I proposed that idea at the meeting to try to help the non-bmw's out, but it seems that only a few are listed in that class.

  11. #11
    I was figuring on starting the discussion early.

    As for attending the meeting, I would have been glad to do so, if I had been in the country. I did put my few cents in with Woody when he asked for input middle of last year. Best I could do within my travel schedule and the groups meeting schedule.

    Give a LOT more notice and I can adjust to make it, but most times within a month or so, I am already setup for travel and can't easily change.

    As to my comments, I agree, the rim size change is a pretty easy one by just allowing stock sized wheels on cars with ST mods and street tires in Prepared.

    As for the Stock class, yes, someone would be crazy to do so, but it can be done and still be legal, but someone with SA Konis that were installed as they came out of the box are not. Just never made sense to me.

    WRT Super Modified, I agree, not enough to worry about, but figured I would throw out my thoughts.

    As for X class, how many different SCCA classes were covered by those 34 cars in X? You end up with a lot of extra classes with 1 or 2 cars per class. And if you give trophies, a LOT more club money.

    Maybe, and this will not really solve the problem of being competitive, would be to divide X to X Showroom, Prepared, and Mod like the BMW classes. But still some BIG performance differences in each class.

    Not an easy one to deal with. But if I run with the PCA at Ripken, I know I am running for my practice and fun pretty much only.
    Terry Carraway
    02 Topaz E46 M3 SMG
    00 Dakar M Roadster
    95 Alpine E36 M3 LTW
    SCCA Spec Racer Ford Red/White

  12. #12
    Senior Member Doby's Avatar
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    Until someone presents a classing structure for non-bmw's that is easy to use and enforce, I do not see the NCC to adopt one.

  13. #13
    Senior Member FT's Avatar
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    I at least have a suggested classing for X cars that will not put further burden on administration, but allow BMW/non-BMW competition. I will write it when I get a chance. IMHO, it is not a difficult issue to resolve.
    Fatih

  14. #14
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    Terry-

    I see your point in terms of having an SM Vette run against a stock Focus, but I just see the CCA events as a marque specific club function with guests-main focus being on bimmers. It's not as competitive as, say, an SCCA event-it tends to be more on learning and having fun.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jed
    Terry-

    I see your point in terms of having an SM Vette run against a stock Focus, but I just see the CCA events as a marque specific club function with guests-main focus being on bimmers. It's not as competitive as, say, an SCCA event-it tends to be more on learning and having fun.
    Agree. And even with breaking X up into the 3 club prep levels will have a Stock Focus running against a Stock Z06.

    Not an easy thing to deal with overall, unless we just go to SCCA classing, which defeats the whole margue club thing.

    I agree in that I see no reason to make additional measures for non-BMW cars. If you run your non-BMW at club events, you know the rules and live with them.

    Even though I propose various rules changes, I run the runs as they are.

    If someone can come up with a non-burdensome way to dealing with X cars, I still have an open mind.
    Terry Carraway
    02 Topaz E46 M3 SMG
    00 Dakar M Roadster
    95 Alpine E36 M3 LTW
    SCCA Spec Racer Ford Red/White

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