Track Pad recommendations

[mlytle]

Myself, and many others, have had the same experience with HT-10s. They are quite non-linear in their generated braking force. You come up to a corner and trounce on them, and there's some braking, but then after about 1 second - yowee - you're parked!

Since the ultimate braking force is more than I've experienced with any pad, I kind of liked them for open-track days - you could time the braking quite well. But once I started racing, they were a disaster - try a dive-bomb move on the inside of someone going into a corner - apply brakes late........ then, suddenly you're BEHIND the car you're trying to pass - much more difficult to master.

Joe

too....much...cooling. ht-10's need to be hot. that 1 sec delay is the pads coming back up to temp. tape up your brake ducts.

i have been racing on ht-10's for three years in e30 and e36's. they are outstanding. i use them front and rear. zero complaints, except from the competitors when they get out-braked...

marshall

[1996 328ti]

too....much...cooling. ht-10's need to be hot. that 1 sec delay is the pads coming back up to temp. tape up your brake ducts.

Great! I just put in ducts!
And almost cut my finger doing it.
Right now I'm using PantherPlus but will go up to the next level when these are shot.

[Dirichlet]

With the increase in friction (and subsequent temperature) of these high performance brake pads, is it recommended to also upgrade to a different type of rotor (other than stock)?

[mlytle]

With the increase in friction (and subsequent temperature) of these high performance brake pads, is it recommended to also upgrade to a different type of rotor (other than stock)?

no. stocks work perfectly. been racing on them for years with zero problems. never had one warp. (i don't do cool down laps or drive around in the paddock after a session either. come in on hot lap, check tire temps and pressures in pits, park car in paddock.) those slotted and drilled "upgrades" are bling.

[slantsixm3]

Guys, please keep in mind that Mlytle (and SharkD) are RACERS. They are not doing driver's schools, there is a big difference.
Racing works all parts of a car much, much harder than a typical driver's school will. There is also a trailer to take you home if things don't work out (typically). So when Marshall tells you that he out-brakes everyone on HT-10's and tapes up his brake ducts, you are talking about a VERY high-temperature pad, that may be a bit too much for a driver's school. Likewise, when he tells you he uses stock rotors, then stock rotors should be more that adequate for a school, despite the magazine ads, web-bloggers, etc.

Marshall, that very much for the data points, very valuable. Just trying to maintain the original context of driver's school equipment.

-Joel B.

[mlytle]

Guys, please keep in mind that Mlytle (and SharkD) are RACERS. They are not doing driver's schools, there is a big difference.
Racing works all parts of a car much, much harder than a typical driver's school will. There is also a trailer to take you home if things don't work out (typically). So when Marshall tells you that he out-brakes everyone on HT-10's and tapes up his brake ducts, you are talking about a VERY high-temperature pad, that may be a bit too much for a driver's school. Likewise, when he tells you he uses stock rotors, then stock rotors should be more that adequate for a school, despite the magazine ads, web-bloggers, etc.

Marshall, that very much for the data points, very valuable. Just trying to maintain the original context of driver's school equipment.

-Joel B.

good points joel, thanks for adding the context emphasis.

back on original topic...
back when i was doing de's in my e36 m3, i used cool willies. (still have a half used set lying around somewhere!) i found them to work very well for the int/adv de environment when i was running down at sebring and moroso. ran them on stock rotors. i will admit i bought into the hype and got a set of euro floating rotors at one point.

[1996 328ti]

i will admit i bought into the hype and got a set of euro floating rotors at one point.

I read on bf.c that drilled, slotted, cryogenic rotors are the hot set up. You know, it must be true. Then get those lifetime pads and replace them after every DE.

That's what I'll be running at Mid-Ohio in a couple weeks.
Chuck, you better give me some room.
I might be braking as soon as I get onto the straights.

[ChosenGSR]

good points joel, thanks for adding the context emphasis.

back on original topic...
back when i was doing de's in my e36 m3, i used cool willies. (still have a half used set lying around somewhere!) i found them to work very well for the int/adv de environment when i was running down at sebring and moroso. ran them on stock rotors. i will admit i bought into the hype and got a set of euro floating rotors at one point.

After much though I went ahead and orderd the cool willies, I think they'll be perfect for me as I've only done 4 DEs.

[SharkD]

Guys, please keep in mind that Mlytle (and SharkD) are RACERS. They are not doing driver's schools, there is a big difference.

Actually, I'm doing double-duty; I'm racing and doing HPDEs. The E24 only got on track during DE's (before I bought the E30) and the SpecE30, while a 'race' car, is also my 'school' car -- the only functional differences between it and a bone-stock E30 325iS is the slightly larger sway bars, slightly stiffer springs, an accusump, extra gauges, brake ducts and a mild weight reduction regimen.

That said, I think the HT-10s aren't well suited to HPDE's unless you have a very heavy car that also has a lot of ooomph (like, an E60 M5 or an E63/4 M6), to keep the pad temps up -- in a lighter car (like an E30 or a Z3/Z4 coupe), the HPS's would do very well on all but the longest tracks (and they handled VIR pretty well, as it is).

[dbonner]

Agree with many of the comments made, especially Joel's on the performance of BMW stock pads under track conditions. I used stock pads my first couple of years in DS, and though adequate, the more I pushed, the more brake fade I experienced, requiring scaling back in a session (not why you're there). This is especially true in summer schools with higher track temps. I've made two improvements since: (1) new brake ducts to improve air flow to the brakes; and (2) Carbotech XP-10 pads. The stopping power difference has been enormous, and brake fade is much more limited and predictable at the end of a robust run (the Toyo RA-1 Proxes I've added do lead to more demands on the brakes). The biggest negative about the Carbotechs (and other high performance pads) is that they are noisy when braking at low speeds on the street. I've kept mine on because I'm not a big enthusiast about changing pads back and forth, and the noise does turn heads. Doug

[Real M3]

OK, I've been following this discussion for quite some time now, 3 pages on this thread, and here's my experience in the "Real M3". I've been running Hawk HP+ pads on the Beast for over 5-6 years now, for Autox, HPDE, and street use. Granted that the Beast isn't that heavy nor has that much HP, but even on long tracks like VIR and Mid OH I've not really experienced brake fade in my run group, B group, to date. I'm running Toyo RA-1s as well. For Autox they are very good but for street use they are noisy as hell and I get a lot of stares. My main issue, besides the noise on the street, is their ability to stop me quicker than 99% of the cars behind me, which causes me great concern in NOVA! They are also very dirty, well they are a track pad afterall. SO, depending on the weight of your car and your expertise level, I'd give them a try for the HPDE. Shameless plug, James Clay at Bimmerworld or Jack Money at Elephant Motorsports seem to have the best prices and availability.

As always YMMV
Chuck

[white_2kgt]

... (2) Carbotech XP-10 pads. The stopping power difference has been enormous, and brake... is that they are noisy when braking at low speeds on the street. I've kept mine on because I'm not a big enthusiast about changing pads back and forth, and the noise does turn heads. Doug

Uh, big problem. For one the XP's don't really work well at low speeds, ie, not much at all. You are creating a SERIOUS problem for yourself and those on the highway around you. If you have to preform emergency braking from highway speed you may not stop in time. It takes a a full hot lap (for me) to warm up the XP10's so they preform as they should. This just isn't possible on the street. Also, using those pads at such a low temp will destroy your rotors in very short order. You need to get in the habit of swapping pads at the track or switch to a dual purpose pad, or start towing.

Not a sermon, just a warning.

[slantsixm3]

Okay, white 2kgt, I hear you saying that the XP-10's, like several others, are abrasive on rotors, and provide little bite when cold. So far, the only pad that does NOT seem to have this trait is the Cool Willies, and now defunct PF90's.
Have you had problems with the brake dust hardening and being unremovable after getting wet? Can you tell I'm going to try these next?
Thanks for your feedback.

- Joel B.

- who changes pads before/after every track event. 60 minutes last night including jack up/down, and I'm slow.

[white_2kgt]

Okay, white 2kgt, I hear you saying that the XP-10's, like several others, are abrasive on rotors, and provide little bite when cold. So far, the only pad that does NOT seem to have this trait is the Cool Willies, and now defunct PF90's.
Have you had problems with the brake dust hardening and being unremovable after getting wet? Can you tell I'm going to try these next?
Thanks for your feedback.

- Joel B.

- who changes pads before/after every track event. 60 minutes last night including jack up/down, and I'm slow.

The only pad I have had problems w/ the dust is the XP's. Yes it got wet and I didn't clean it for a few months. I greatly regret it now. One of my wheels I cannot get clean. Eventually I'll take it to ye old wheel and see what they can do. Now, on my second set of wheels I keep them waxed and clean them off after each event, within the week. So far no problems and they still look great. I have no experience with the Cool Willies or Hawk HT10 dust.

I never had a problem with the dust from PF pads, they also didn't grab as good as the XP's, same as the other pads I have used.

When I drove to the track I use to change tires/pads/rotors. I could get it all done in less than an hour (this was the mustang, but similar to my buddies M3, other than the parking brake thing ). I suspect with some more practice you can as well. The only thing that sucks is changing them back to street after your last session, they will be HOT!

[AlfaEric]

The only pad I have had problems w/ the dust is the XP's. Yes it got wet and I didn't clean it for a few months. I greatly regret it now. One of my wheels I cannot get clean. Eventually I'll take it to ye old wheel and see what they can do. Now, on my second set of wheels I keep them waxed and clean them off after each event, within the week. So far no problems and they still look great. I have no experience with the Cool Willies or Hawk HT10 dust.

Try using a piece of claybar. It's pretty good at pulling embedded stuff out of your wheels. Just don't re-use it on your car's paint afterwards.

---Eric