10/23/2010 - Autocross Points Event #8

Points Event 8

NCC Autocross will host the 8th and final points event of the year on October 23rd, 2010.

Registration opens 12:00 AM on Saturday, October 2nd, 2010 and closes 12:00AM on Friday, October 22nd, 2010.

Register online as walk-up registration costs are higher!

Online registration is $30.00 for members / $35.00 for non-members.
All walk-up registrations will be charged $35.00 for members / $40.00 for non-members.

Please register online so that we can properly plan for the event (and save yourself some money too). Online registration also will streamline your registration process on event day.

This years program is targeted towards the first timer as well as the more experienced autocrosser. Our events promote a great social gathering of all ages and all cars. Bring your car right from the showroom, or take your project out of the garage for a spin around the cones, in a safe manner provided by our outstanding NCCBMWCCA autocross committee.

Please contact us with any questions you might have. We'll be happy to answer your questions. Please use our message board at http://forum.nccbmwcca.org/showthrea...2010-Autocross... to post any questions you may have.

See you on the 22nd!

The Essentials ...

Registration

Register Here!

Registration opens 12:00 AM on Saturday, October 2nd, 2010 and closes 12:00AM on Friday, October 22nd, 2010.

Registrations are non-refundable and non-transferable.
Location:
Summit Point Motorsport Park (Washington Circuit)
201 Motorsport Park Circle
Summit Point, MD, 25446

Woo-hoo, SP & it's slippery mini road course. I promise to stay off the grassy knoll this time. =)

Excited yet sad at the same time... Can't believe the season is coming to an end. Anyhow, if I added up the points correctly for this season, I think I'm set for X4 which means I can drive a different car for the last event. Anyone care to let me co-drive their car?? If not, I'll probably end up running my dads Z4 in S1:biggrin:

Where in SP is this event held at? Is it the Kart track?

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Originally Posted by Tochenzo

Is it the Kart track?

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yes

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Originally Posted by civicexracer

Excited yet sad at the same time... Can't believe the season is coming to an end. Anyhow, if I added up the points correctly for this season, I think I'm set for X4 which means I can drive a different car for the last event. Anyone care to let me co-drive their car?? If not, I'll probably end up running my dads Z4 in S1:biggrin:

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Wish I had that option...but I need an 8th place finish or better to clinch X2 after missing a few events!

I could make it interesting for the rest of X2 and bring the 4Runner instead....its 4.0L engine would put it in X2 :) Wonder if it could pull off an 8th place finish at Summit, lol.

would be nice if points standings through 7 evens would be posted, btw, so we can all be sure that we have the correct math on our points!

AJ, you're always welcome to drive my car, I'm sure it would enjoy going fast for once... lol.

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Originally Posted by civicexracer

Excited yet sad at the same time... Can't believe the season is coming to an end. Anyhow, if I added up the points correctly for this season, I think I'm set for X4 which means I can drive a different car for the last event. Anyone care to let me co-drive their car?? If not, I'll probably end up running my dads Z4 in S1:biggrin:

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Ok, so I'm going to ask a really noob question here...actually 2:

1) I noticed a few guys putting shoe polish on the side of their tires. I understand it's to help them figure out how the tire is getting traction. My QUestion is how should you apply said shoe polish and how do you read the results?

2) 2nd noob question: I also noticed some guys spritzing something on their cards. I'm assuming its water. Is this to bring down the tire temperatures? Also wouldn't this lower the tire pressures to an undesired psi?

I mark chalk/shoe polish on 3 parts of each tire (like a triangle) to cover a portion of the tread to the sidewall. The ideal tire pressure should allow the tire to rub off all of the polish on the tread and have it show starting from the sidewall. If there is polish showing on the tread, it means you need to let out some air. If there is no polish on the sidewall, it means you need more air.

Yes its water and yes it's to cool the tires. Spraying the tires with water really just cools the surface temperature. People do this becuase usually after a run or 2(also depending on abient and pavement temperature), the tires surface can get real hot, usually resulting in a "sluggish" or "slippery" feeling on the next run. Spaying with water keeps the surface temperature down enough so the tires maintain a good level of grip. As for the pressures, they don't drop mainly because you're only spaying a little bit of water on the surface and with only minutes between runs, there just isn't enough time for the water to cool fast enough to drop the pressure.

Hmm, I have much to think about now! Thanks for the answers guys!

I dont even spray my r-comps (which heat up MUCH faster than street tires) unless it's scorching out and the pavement can cook an egg. Heck, at the last AI, when I was co-driving Les' car, we didn't even spray his A6's and that was 8 runs (16 total counting morning and afternoon) with very little time between them. I've no idea why folks were spraying their street tires at the last BMW event, the ground was lukewarm at best.

Heavy cars and cars on qualifying tires are the ones that really benefit from spraying their tires. I watched Hoelscher use nearly a whole bottle on his DP MR2 at the Divisionals this year.

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Originally Posted by civicexracer

Yes its water and yes it's to cool the tires. Spraying the tires with water really just cools the surface temperature. People do this becuase usually after a run or 2(also depending on abient and pavement temperature), the tires surface can get real hot, usually resulting in a "sluggish" or "slippery" feeling on the next run. Spaying with water keeps the surface temperature down enough so the tires maintain a good level of grip. As for the pressures, they don't drop mainly because you're only spaying a little bit of water on the surface and with only minutes between runs, there just isn't enough time for the water to cool fast enough to drop the pressure.

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And on cool days you'll see some of the same, uh, fanatics putting blankets or other insulating material over their tires after each run in an attempt to keep some majic amount of heat in the tire tread.

I don't think spraying tires does much, like AJ said you are only cooling the outer tread. Right behind the wheel is a very hot brake disc, and the metal wheels, both of these are huge heat sinks. Spraying the outside of the tread doesn't counter them at all, I think once you take two turns at speed the tires are right back up to their previous temp. I gave up on sprayers, although on a really hot day they could be used to cool down the driver.

This is only opinion, I have no scientific data to back my claims.
AJ sprays his tires and he is faster than me so I am probably wrong...

I use shoe polish on new tires or if I've changed alignment, or pressure etc. Otherwise I don't. I start on the outer tread edge and do a line down over the shoulder of the sidewall, looking for where it rubs off or stays. I'm middle ground with spraying. I think most people do it just to do it without the technical aspect of knowing if it really helps under the conditions. Since I run Star Specs which are high performance street tires, it would take a lot of runs to need it (probably 5 in a row like a test and tune) so I never end up spraying. Plus the simple fact that I am not that high caliber where the 1/1,000th of a second difference would matter so I concentrate on the driving.

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Originally Posted by flohtingPoint

I dont even spray my r-comps (which heat up MUCH faster than street tires) unless it's scorching out and the pavement can cook an egg. Heck, at the last AI, when I was co-driving Les' car, we didn't even spray his A6's and that was 8 runs (16 total counting morning and afternoon) with very little time between them. I've no idea why folks were spraying their street tires at the last BMW event, the ground was lukewarm at best.

Heavy cars and cars on qualifying tires are the ones that really benefit from spraying their tires. I watched Hoelscher use nearly a whole bottle on his DP MR2 at the Divisionals this year.

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At event #7 I sprayed my front right before my last run because it was incredibly hot (mostly left turns). The other three were fine though.

Some car/tire combinations need it. Try co-driving a nose heavy AWD pig on a July day. They get hot! Some hot is good, but too much and you can definitely tell the difference.

Lol thanks Sam haha.

I've never used polish myself, I've just messed with tire pressures over the years and go from there. I've pretty much found my ideal tire pressures, in wet and dry so I always run that. As for the sprayer, I don't use it much. I used it more when co-driving my buddies RSX-S on his Kumho XS tires, they really needed the water bad. As for my car, I only use the sprayer on real hot sunny days(mid summer) and usually only spray on my 3rd and/or 4th run. Sometimes I'll just spray the front tires since they tend to get a lot hotter than the rear on my car. BUT, I will admit the effects are usually so minimal it's hardly, if at all, noticeable. It is however noticeable when co-driving a car.

Keep in mind there are some other things to factor in such as brand tire itself, weight of car, fwd/rwd, tire compounds, etc.. I have no real experience with r-comps but I have ran "high-performance" street tires(kumho spt and yokomama s.drives) and man those really needed water after one run. As for the extreme performance tires, like the bstone re-11, they don't fall flat on their face like the others when heat gets to them. So, if you run a true street tire, water might actually help a good bit. If anything better than a true street tire, then you may not really need the water.

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Originally Posted by ButtDyno

. Try co-driving a nose heavy AWD pig on a July day. They get hot! Some hot is good, but too much and you can definitely tell the difference.

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Me being an Autocross noob, I doubt anyone will let me codrive anything of theirs until I prove myself!

I spray because it makes people think I know what I'm doing, even when I don't.

Actually I think it might help with consistency. First run you start out with tires that are kinda cool, and you go find out what you've got. Come in and spray em down so they're back to something like the temperature they were at on that first run, and since you know what you've got, you can start there and adjust driving to take advantage of that knowledge. Lather, rinse, repeat.

At least, in theory. We're still noobs so we're allowed to do things that might not make any sense despite how much we're convinced ourselves that they might.

I volunteer to spray my competitors' tires. They think I'm being nice, but I'm really spraying WD-40 :D

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Originally Posted by ElGordoFeroz

Me being an Autocross noob, I doubt anyone will let me codrive anything of theirs until I prove myself!

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you have a great car for autocross...If Fred Caton had run this entire season in his 07(?) MS3, he'd be leading our class instead of me most likely.

I'm not doubting the car, the car is great. Little Rosita has taken everything I've thrown at her and just smiled, or evil grin as I put it. No, I call myself a noob because this is my first season ever driving in AutoX. I think i still have a few things to learn!

Get yourself some proper tires Brother. It'll make a ton of difference.

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Originally Posted by flohtingPoint

Get yourself some proper tires Brother. It'll make a ton of difference.

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Thats the plan for next year with my tax refund, new tires and lightweight rims!

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Originally Posted by ElGordoFeroz

Thats the plan for next year with my tax refund, new tires and lightweight rims!

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Lightweight wheels are nice but not totally necessary if you can fit smaller wheels on your car. My black wheels I use on the Corolla are quite heavy as they're "racing steelies". Side by side with my MR2's Kosei's, they're weight is very clear. Honestly, I'd just get whatever the smallest wheel that can fit on your car and is around 8in wide, toss some used Hoosiers on them and call it a day.

Seriously, scan sccaforums for used tire/wheel combos that may fit your car and drop an offer. Dont look to be too optimal, just look to get some proper used rubber. My tire/wheel combo for BMW is not great at all. Like I said, the wheels I use are fairly heavy and the tires were made in 2005 (for r-comps, this is a VERY long time to dry out and turn to rocks) and are only a 205 width.

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Originally Posted by ElGordoFeroz

Thats the plan for next year with my tax refund, new tires and lightweight rims!

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Why not adjust your W-4 form so you have YOUR money NOW, and not let Uncle Sam have it interest-free for a year?

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Originally Posted by John in VA

Why not adjust your W-4 form so you have YOUR money NOW, and not let Uncle Sam have it interest-free for a year?

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i have this slight issue of money burning holes in my pockets, it gets so hot...and I have to get rid of the money quickly!

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Originally Posted by flohtingPoint

Lightweight wheels are nice but not totally necessary if you can fit smaller wheels on your car. My black wheels I use on the Corolla are quite heavy as they're "racing steelies". Side by side with my MR2's Kosei's, they're weight is very clear. Honestly, I'd just get whatever the smallest wheel that can fit on your car and is around 8in wide, toss some used Hoosiers on them and call it a day.

Seriously, scan sccaforums for used tire/wheel combos that may fit your car and drop an offer. Dont look to be too optimal, just look to get some proper used rubber. My tire/wheel combo for BMW is not great at all. Like I said, the wheels I use are fairly heavy and the tires were made in 2005 (for r-comps, this is a VERY long time to dry out and turn to rocks) and are only a 205 width.

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depends if he plans to run SCCA/AI events as well, in which case he probably doesn't want r-comps, unless he's going to stay in stock class. Because if he's modded at all, the r-comps will put him way up in classes where he'll get completely destroyed, which is never fun. IDK, in my opinion I think it's beneficial for new autocrossers to learn to drive first on "street tires" where there is more gradual breakaway before going to r-comps anyways.....an inexperienced driver can get in some trouble with the cornering speeds that rcomps allow and the relatively quick breakaway at the limit...

thoughts?

btw, his car has pretty good stock tires, I think they're RE070s...Fred Caton in his MS3 was getting easily as much traction with his as I was with RE01Rs on the wrx, from what I could tell.

My stock tires are Dunlop s2020's and they have held up great. Irish is right though, I'm thinking of running SCCA Street Tuned, not street prepared. My car is mostly stock, except for the short ram intake. I really want to talk to an SCCA guy about classing and allowed mods.

(opinions on the Kumho Ecsta XS's?)

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Originally Posted by ElGordoFeroz

My stock tires are Dunlop s2020's and they have held up great. Irish is right though, I'm thinking of running SCCA Street Tuned, not street prepared. My car is mostly stock, except for the short ram intake. I really want to talk to an SCCA guy about classing and allowed mods.

(opinions on the Kumho Ecsta XS's?)

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I'd go stock if I were you. Just need some shocks, talk to some MS3 folks about what front sway to run and get some r-comps on a spare set of wheels in your stock size. Less cost than building a Street Touring car. Might have to replace the stock air box, not sure on that one, but that shouldn't be a big deal.

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Originally Posted by irish44j

an inexperienced driver can get in some trouble with the cornering speeds that rcomps allow and the relatively quick breakaway at the limit...

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Not likely Brother. People who are inexperienced with r-comps usually underdrive the hell out of them, rarely pushing as hard as they can/should. Lets say he find the limit and breaks it. Just a spin and a bad time on that pass will result.

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Originally Posted by ElGordoFeroz

(opinions on the Kumho Ecsta XS's?)

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We run XS on the Mazdaspeed. I have a hard time keeping the back of the MSM planted when I get on the gas. The RE-11s on my white car hook up far better, though I have to admit that the MSM and my '90 are set up very differently suspension-wise.

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Originally Posted by flohtingPoint

I'd go stock if I were you. Just need some shocks, talk to some MS3 folks about what front sway to run and get some r-comps on a spare set of wheels in your stock size. Less cost than building a Street Touring car. Might have to replace the stock air box, not sure on that one, but that shouldn't be a big deal.

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IDK...we could argue all day about what class he should shoot for, but it really all comes down to what his priorities for the car are (do you want it to be a badass autocross machine, or do you want it to be a badass daily driver?), what his budget is (no clue), and so on...

I see your POV though...Having run on r-comps before myself it's hard to go back to street tires or understand why someone would want to run on them after the adrenaline rush of r-comps. That said, I've run on streets now for 10+ years and really enjoy ST classes better than comp classes personnally...

I guess the choices would be:
1. Go stock class and be happy driving a "stock" car around on a daily basis. Boring in my view, unless your car in stock form has a Ferrari or Porsche or ///M badge on it. And you may still be at the back of the pack.
2. Most of the mods that you'd want to do in a reasonable budget for street driving are probably going to be ST legal. So build your car for the street, but keep ST limits in mind. Enjoy your car every day when driving it, and be happy at the middle of the STU pack at events, while learning to drive your car better, slowing improving the setup and the driver. This is my personal approach.
3. Spend alot of money, mod to the max allowances of STU, make your car possibly less enjoyable for regular driving, and you're still not guaranteed to be a front-runner. Especially with a MS3 or WRX in an STU dominated by STi's and Evos. But if being top dog is your goal, better take a look at whether your car CAN be top dog in its class, whether it be stock or prepared. My car can't, in all likelihood. If that was my goal, I would have gotten an Evo or at least an STi....
4. Do whatever you want to the car, run in whatever class that puts you in (I used to run a freakin Nissan Maxima in EP, so I know about this!), and enjoy autocross wherever you finish. Or go to events that don't use SCCA-style classing (like NCC events, or CDC events, or any number of other car clubs).

You decide what works best for you. I prefer #2 or #4....

because driving a stock WRX (or MS3) with just a bigger front bar and good shocks would be boring as hell on a daily basis, in my opinion.

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Not likely Brother. People who are inexperienced with r-comps usually underdrive the hell out of them, rarely pushing as hard as they can/should. Lets say he find the limit and breaks it. Just a spin and a bad time on that pass will result.

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lol, my use of words sucks....I didn't mean "trouble" as in "the car will end up in the trees or burst into flames".....I meant it as in the frustration of being inconsistent and perhaps not learning to drive the car to ITS limits, since the r-comps may make it "fast enough" without getting near the car's (or tire's) limits....

I totally agree. A driver should develop good habits and skills on streets to their potential before moving on. When I strat thinking about upgrades like that, I have someone skilled & fast drive my car, then I remember where the upgrade is needed first, lol.

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Originally Posted by irish44j

...in my opinion I think it's beneficial for new autocrossers to learn to drive first on "street tires" where there is more gradual breakaway before going to r-comps anyways.....an inexperienced driver can get in some trouble with the cornering speeds that rcomps allow and the relatively quick breakaway at the limit...

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Originally Posted by hepcatz

I totally agree. A driver should develop good habits and skills on streets to their potential before moving on. When I strat thinking about upgrades like that, I have someone skilled & fast drive my car, then I remember where the upgrade is needed first, lol.

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Cant disagree more. Driving on streets is extremely different than driving on r-comps, they're almost two different skill sets. Anyone that saw me driving Dunham's car at the last event could tell that I was heavily struggling (I had to totally unlearn my driving style) and that my braking was WAY off, this is because the braking zones are VERY different. The way you throw a car into the pocket is vastly incomparable. Either way, you're not going to find the full potential of street tires unless your name is Fernando Alonso.

Dont get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for a lot of street tire drivers. Ask James, the first thing I said to him after run 1 at the last event was "You street tire folks are VERY talented to pull off the times you do." Most of my autocrossing friends are in the Street Touring classes and I pick their brains a lot on a ton of things. This whole season Noel and I have been trading information and comments on our driving and I'd like to think it's been as helpful to him as it has for me.

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Do you want it to be a badass autocross machine, or do you want it to be a badass daily driver?

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Ah, that's where you lost me Josh, I dont think about daily drivers very much. The only time I start the Corolla is if it's going to an event, going to the shop or if it hasn't been started in over a week.

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Originally Posted by flohtingPoint

Most of my autocrossing friends are in the Street Touring classes and I pick their brains a lot on a ton of things.

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:( you never pick my brain lol....

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Originally Posted by flohtingPoint

Ah, that's where you lost me Josh, I dont think about daily drivers very much. The only time I start the Corolla is if it's going to an event, going to the shop or if it hasn't been started in over a week.

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Trust me, I wish I could be so lucky as to have a DD that I enjoy driving AND a track/autocross-specific vehicle not well suited to DD duties, but setup for motorsports.

Alas, real life and an old Triumph sitting in my garage prevent such a joyous day!

Run the Triumph!

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Originally Posted by ElGordoFeroz

Run the Triumph!

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+1 !

The triumph will be run someday, but it still has bugs to work out.....and now that I'm working on the subie, I havn't had much time to work on the GT6.

Besides, GT6 is not a good autocross car anyhow...too nose-heavy. Better-configured for open-track work....it's a GT car, ya know.

I can't wait for this event now....time to test out the new suspension :D

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j8...e/IMG_3503.jpg