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Pinecone
06-02-2005, 07:33 AM
Any idea on who made it in?

I emailed the registar, but got NO answer. I am trying to plan other things around the weekend, but it would help to know if I am busy those two days. :)

OwnedbyDuncan
06-02-2005, 08:13 AM
Have you tried calling?

Dave Apker

1996 328ti
06-02-2005, 08:38 AM
Doug is out of town at the moment.
If your postmark was the first week of registration I'd say you are in.
I don't believe they have set the number of students able to attend yet.
I expect it to be full though. Full is usually 60.

NoSoup4U
06-02-2005, 01:38 PM
Have you tried calling?

Dave Apker

It does not help when you call and the answering machine responds: "Answer Off" and does not allow you to leave a message.

NoSoup4U
06-06-2005, 08:58 AM
Can anyone inform me how to get in touch with Dave Apker please. His answering machine gives me the same thing, "answer off" ... I've emailed numerous times with no response as well.

TIA

Pinecone
06-06-2005, 10:56 AM
I got an email back. I am now 0 for 4 years in getting into an NCC DE event.

This time it was somewhat my fault, or at least work's fault, in that I was supposed to be out of town for the dates, then things got shuffled and I was in town. So late application.

Not a big deal, but not sure why I keep NCC membership. :)

Also, just bought a race car, so will be spending more time racing than doing DEs. MUCH more fun. :) May even upgrade my license from Regional to National.

1996 328ti
06-06-2005, 12:21 PM
Can anyone inform me how to get in touch with Dave Apker please. His answering machine gives me the same thing, "answer off" ... I've emailed numerous times with no response as well.

TIADave or Doug? Whatcha need? And anyone who registered the first couple days of the registration period is most likely in. We do not want to post names to a webpage but maybe we can just post first name, last initial and car?

Dirichlet
06-06-2005, 02:58 PM
maybe we can just post first name, last initial and car?

I think that would be a great idea... anybody second that notion?

NoSoup4U
06-06-2005, 03:11 PM
Dave or Doug? Whatcha need? And anyone who registered the first couple days of the registration period is most likely in. We do not want to post names to a webpage but maybe we can just post first name, last initial and car?

Whomever is listed on the signup page (i.e, if you have questions). From a previous post, I signed up for the HSS. I could not make it b/c my car was not completed ... So, I lost out my registration fee. That is fine.

I wanted to sign up for this driving school event; but, learning my lesson from the first time, I did not want to sign up and lose $350. A lot of times, these places are like ... yes it will be ready; but, two days before hand will tell you, sorry, something came up -- we could not complete it. The car is at Kearney's racing right now ...

I sent an email immediately after the HSS was finished to find out if I should sign up for the NCC DE -- no response. I called: no response. Sent two follow-up emails: no response. I believe it is Doug Apker, or Dave Apker, I forget right now.

I know that it says NO refunds ... but, I wanted to see if I could at least roll the money into the next NCC event in case the car was not completed by the school.

I am disappointed since I inquired WELL BEFORE registration opened -- I could have sent in my registration immediately that day. Plus, I wanted to also see if it was okay to have a co-driver for my vehicle. So, there were a couple of important questions -- but, I've received no response.

ob325
06-06-2005, 04:05 PM
We do not want to post names to a webpage but maybe we can just post first name, last initial and car?

That would be great. Along with a Tech Inspection form to download and it could pretty much be self-service and reduce the registrar's workload.

1996 328ti
06-06-2005, 08:26 PM
I sent an email immediately after the HSS was finished to find out if I should sign up for the NCC DE -- no response. I called: no response. Sent two follow-up emails: no response. I believe it is Doug Apker, or Dave Apker, I forget right now.I understand this is a problem. Doug Verner is balancing work, family and the role as registrar. Timely responses are important. If you don't get a response in a reasonable amount of time, post something here or email me.

I don't think we would have transferred the registration fee towards another school. Unfortunately we can not fill a spot once the instructor assignments are complete. I would like to think we would consider refunds or transferring fees on a case by case basis. If there was a family issue that would be one thing, but not having the car ready is not cause for a refund or transfer. You can always email anyone of the board and we'd discuss it. Anyone is welcomed to attent the meetings. They are the 2nd Wed of the month, usually in Oakton.

We need to get the tech form posted. For now anyone is free to use the sample form on the website. I realize the system we have is far from perfect. I'd be happy to hear of any suggestions.

NoSoup4U
06-06-2005, 09:21 PM
Thanks Steven for your response. Don't get me wrong, this is not just a bytch fest. I would be willing to help Doug/Dave out if he would like. In fact, I offered this in an email to him as well. I understand he has to balance a lot of things -- I completely understand; but, I even offered to assist him. Ask Pete or Eric, with autocross, even though I am not officially involved, I'll do whatever I can to assist. Call up places, get contracts, etc. If Doug/Dave would like, I could be the point of contact for everyone and only contact him for emergency type of stuff ... I could compile the entrant and wait list, answer questions, send out packets, etc.

I understand that there is no refund -- but, if I am asking ahead of time "knowing" that it might be possible that the car is not ready, I would think that my situation would fall under the "case" by case basis to allow me to roll the money into the next event. Plus, I do not need an instructor, if that helps the matter any :D

p.s. -- I do not want to be "officially" involved, since I do not like to commit things unless I can do 100% ... and I can't guarantee that; but, I would love to assist in any manner to ease Doug/Dave's burden, if he would like.

1996 328ti
06-06-2005, 11:10 PM
I realize it is not a bytch fest. I'd rather discuss things here than privately.
First, Dave is not involved with the driving school. ;)
Contracts and track contact is by Adil. Doug handles the registration.
He's only done it for one school so far and had to develop his own system pretty much.
The registration data is collected and needs to be exported in a certain way to our school's master database. That part is involved but we are getting the hang of it. Getting the registration data into the database is cumbersome and is generally done it one big batch. For next year we can automate the process. I created a system we use for the VIR school that is working out pretty well. A person pre-registers and the data goes straight into the database via email. That will save an enormous amount of time. There is hope. But it won't happen until next year.

I guess what we really need is a way for better communication.
As far as refunds or considerations, Doug does not do that. If anything he would refer it to the board. He goes by the admission policy and when there is a question he asks us.

BTW- All students get instructors. ;) Otherwise it would be a lapping day.

Pete
06-07-2005, 08:55 AM
I have yet to hear if I even got in. I'm assuming I didn't at this point.

Pete

1996 328ti
06-07-2005, 09:04 AM
I have yet to hear if I even got in. I'm assuming I didn't at this point.

PeteI hope to post something later (Tues night).

NoSoup4U
06-07-2005, 10:20 AM
Steven -

Then my question to you is this. Can I send in my information and be put on the waitlist in the hopes of getting in. One member signed up, that is a committee member of NCC, based on the belief that I also would attend. I did not send in my registration the first available day b/c I did not want to lose the $350.00. My car is being built to race in CCA in IP. However, a lot of things are out of my control. For instance, my car sat three weeks near Baltimore, Md without a single thing being done to it. I had to take it and bring it to the cage-builder.

From there, I need to get it up to baltimore again. I was told he can do it in "a couple of hours" -- makes you wonder why it sat for three weeks, ehh? But, that is assuming the cage builders can complete the car. They are doing the cage, door panels, kill switch, fire suppression system, racing seats, custom brackets, etc. They said they "think" it might be done in time for the NCC; but, being a business of course, they said they could not guarantee it.

So, can I send in my registration in hopes of getting in ... and, if I do get in and I am not able to attend, can I roll that money into the next event?

1996 328ti
06-07-2005, 12:08 PM
I have not seen the student list yet. I believe the first 60 who registered are in. I don't know how many are on the wait list. Are we still talking about the June school? Besides, that registration is closed. It is too late to be added to the wait list anyway. The August school opens up June 17.

BTW- Anyone who registers and doesn't get in we simply tear up their check. This is one reason we still like accepting checks for payment.

Phat Ham
06-08-2005, 12:46 PM
I sent in an application but moved to a new place at the end of May. I sent Doug an email with my new address, but received no response. I submitted my application kind of late so chances are I didn't get in, but I would still like to know so that I'm not sitting in my room twiddling my thumbs that weekend.

NoSoup4U
06-08-2005, 01:18 PM
I have not seen the student list yet. I believe the first 60 who registered are in. I don't know how many are on the wait list. Are we still talking about the June school? Besides, that registration is closed. It is too late to be added to the wait list anyway. The August school opens up June 17.

BTW- Anyone who registers and doesn't get in we simply tear up their check. This is one reason we still like accepting checks for payment.

Thanks Steven. I am a bit disappointed though since I inquired WELL before the registration date even opened up. I actually tried to follow procedures and regulations and prevent what happened to me last time re: the HSS and I am penalized for it, not b/c of my actions; but, because of the inaction of another.

Is the registrar going to be present at the next NCC meeting. If so, can you please give details on the meeting location, time, etc. Thank you.

1996 328ti
06-08-2005, 10:27 PM
I sent in an application but moved to a new place at the end of May. I sent Doug an email with my new address, but received no response. I submitted my application kind of late so chances are I didn't get in, but I would still like to know so that I'm not sitting in my room twiddling my thumbs that weekend.Your application was received 5/13. The registration period was April 22 - May 20. You are on the wait list. It doesn't look good. Your address change has been noted.

srm
06-09-2005, 11:14 AM
Steve,

Can you confirm whether or not I made it into the June (25-26) school? Thanks in advance.

-Stephen Matherne

Phat Ham
06-09-2005, 11:38 AM
Your application was received 5/13. The registration period was April 22 - May 20. You are on the wait list. It doesn't look good. Your address change has been noted. Thanks for the status update. Guess I'll have to wait for the August DE.

1996 328ti
06-09-2005, 12:58 PM
Thanks for the status update. Guess I'll have to wait for the August DE. Registration Period June 17 - July 15 for the August school. Get you application in on time. NOT EARLY. Anything before June 17 will go to the end of the pile!

1996 328ti
06-09-2005, 09:27 PM
Randall B. 1995 M3
Jim B. 1987 325is
Douglas B. 2001 M5
Blair B. 2002 M3
Thomas B. 2002 540i
Paul B. 2003 Corvette
Don C. 2005 Corvette
Fred C. 1997 M3
Thai D. 2004 R-32
Charles D. 1995 318ti
William D. 2004 STi
Jim E. 1997 M3
Taylor F. 1998 328i
Marty F. 1996 M3
Todd F. 2002 M3
John G. 1993 M5
Robert H. 1988 M6
Helen H. 1989 325i
Ruhl H. 1999 M3
Todd H. 2002 325i
Matthew J. 2004 WRX STi
Seth K. 1997 328is
Mark K. 1999 M3
Peter K. 1995 325is
Colin K. 1996 328is
Richard K. 2001 325Ci
Parson L. 2005 WRX STi
Dan M. 1991 M3
Kenneth M. 1996 M3
Stephen M. 2001 M3
Joseph M. 2002 330i
David M. 1999 M3
Wayne M. 2001 M3
Romella M. 2002 RSX
David M. 2001 330Ci
Norris M. 1990 M3
Patrick M. 1988 325is
Jeff M. 1989 M3
Roy M. 1995 M3
Gary N. 2003 M3
David O. 1995 M3
Oscar O. 1994 325is
Noah P. 1995 M3
Mark P. 1997 M3
Patrick P. 1989 325ix
Michael P. 2002 RSX
Jeanne P. 1995 M3
Dennis P. 1988 325is
Fitzgerald P. 1997 M3
Vinay R. 1999 M3
Bruce R. 1987 944 Turbo
Steve R. 1997 M3
Jonathan R. 1997 Maxima
Grant S. 2000 M5
Lauren S. 2002 M3
Neil S. 1999 M Coupe
Alan S. 2003 M3
Drew S. 1997 M3
Ted W. 1994 325is
Stanley W. 1988 944TS
Chester W. 2005 Elise
Geoffrey Y. 1994 318i

jkuper
06-10-2005, 08:32 AM
Randall B. 1995 M3
Jim B. 1987 325is
Douglas B. 2001 M5
Blair B. 2002 M3
Thomas B. 2002 540i
Paul B. 2003 Corvette
Don C. 2005 Corvette
Fred C. 1997 M3
Thai D. 2004 R-32
Charles D. 1995 318ti
William D. 2004 STi
Jim E. 1997 M3
Taylor F. 1998 328i
Marty F. 1996 M3
Todd F. 2002 M3
John G. 1993 M5
Robert H. 1988 M6
Helen H. 1989 325i
Ruhl H. 1999 M3
Todd H. 2002 325i
Matthew J. 2004 WRX STi
Seth K. 1997 328is
Mark K. 1999 M3
Peter K. 1995 325is
Colin K. 1996 328is
Richard K. 2001 325Ci
Parson L. 2005 WRX STi
Dan M. 1991 M3
Kenneth M. 1996 M3
Stephen M. 2001 M3
Joseph M. 2002 330i
David M. 1999 M3
Wayne M. 2001 M3
Romella M. 2002 RSX
David M. 2001 330Ci
Norris M. 1990 M3
Patrick M. 1988 325is
Jeff M. 1989 M3
Roy M. 1995 M3
Gary N. 2003 M3
David O. 1995 M3
Oscar O. 1994 325is
Noah P. 1995 M3
Mark P. 1997 M3
Patrick P. 1989 325ix
Michael P. 2002 RSX
Jeanne P. 1995 M3
Dennis P. 1988 325is
Fitzgerald P. 1997 M3
Vinay R. 1999 M3
Bruce R. 1987 944 Turbo
Steve R. 1997 M3
Jonathan R. 1997 Maxima
Grant S. 2000 M5
Lauren S. 2002 M3
Neil S. 1999 M Coupe
Alan S. 2003 M3
Drew S. 1997 M3
Ted W. 1994 325is
Stanley W. 1988 944TS
Chester W. 2005 Elise
Geoffrey Y. 1994 318i

Hmm, and where is my name? I got the email :)

1996 328ti
06-10-2005, 11:40 AM
Hmm, and where is my name? I got the email :)
I guess I still need to work out some bugs.:confused:

jkuper
06-10-2005, 11:46 AM
I guess I still need to work out some bugs.:confused:

Umm, what do you mean??? What bugs?? That I am not in? I corresponded with Miriam and Rafael just a few days ago about a car change and it was confirmed. I sent in the registration the day it opened. I am showing up!

1996 328ti
06-10-2005, 12:43 PM
This is the NCC June 25-26 school at Summit.
I have changed the subject to reflect that and to avoid further confusion.

SharkD
06-10-2005, 04:30 PM
Too bad I'll miss seeing that Elise (and that '97 Maxima) ;) on the track... but my friends would be upset if I bailed on their wedding to spend a day on the track. :)

Pinecone
06-12-2005, 04:20 AM
I don't think we would have transferred the registration fee towards another school. Unfortunately we can not fill a spot once the instructor assignments are complete. I would like to think we would consider refunds or transferring fees on a case by case basis. If there was a family issue that would be one thing, but not having the car ready is not cause for a refund or transfer.

So are you saying the wait list is not really used? At what point are instructor assignments made? Can that date be made public?

And why not look at least at allowing refunds if the spot can be filled by someone on the wait list versus flat no refunds. I can see that if the club has an empty slot due to the cancellation that no refund makes sense, and I don't have a problem with that. But no refunds, when the club fills the slot and gets paid for the slot, they are collecting twice. Good deal for the club, not so great for members.

And if the schools fill up with people who are postmarked on the first day, why not have a less than 1 week sign up period? maybe closer to the event. Not everyone can plan months in advance. This is one reason racing is more appealling, I can sign up the day before the race weekend, although with a late fee.

Also, when are people told that they are NOT in the school? It would help to know if the check is destroyed or still floating out there. I can spend the money on other stuff. :)

Since I have never attended an NCC DE, how many run groups? How many cars per run group?

1996 328ti
06-12-2005, 06:53 AM
I do not know to what extent the wait list is use.
As an example we look to have 60 students on the main track, (45 on the JC). The number to accept is based on the number of instructors. For X number of instructors we accept x number of students. This might mean we only accept 50 students. If someone needs to cancel the next person moves up. If we get a few more instructors, more people move off the wait list.

Generally assignments are a couple weeks before the event. They are not public since they can change as late as Saturday morning. Besides it really isn't necessary to know your instructor.

We run 3 groups (20 each). This is to allow movement to the skid pad. 4 run groups would allow more students but less track time.

We are not looking to collect twice. I personally feel that driving schools are so popular that they should break out even.

I don't know how the racing side goes but they don't need to look at experience levels to decide which run group and they don't have to match an instructor to the student. So racing is a bit different.

When some is not accepted to the school their check is discarded. This is one of the reasons checks are not deposited earlier. It looks like we have 88 people who signed up for the June school. It is a lot easier to tear up say 18 checks then cut 18 checks. But then people complain that we did not cash their check and now spent the money because they had money in their checking account. We really can't please everyone. This is another reason that I do not like online payment. I don't think we should hold onto someone's money for 2 or 3 months only to refund it back. Too many chances of error. That is not to say that a check of a waitlisted student whill be deposited. It happens but rarely.

Our schools have not filled up the first day. Any DE I do I send in my application the first day. I understand people don't know if they can make a school months in advance but there are plenty of people who can. Tarheel schools fill up the first day. My postmark was the 2nd day and I was wait listed. One year we made it so that anyone who did not attend a school that year had a priority. What happened was people would look at the 4 posisble weekends and pick one. The end result was attendance was low. We went back to postmark dates.

We do the best we can and make changes every year.

OwnedbyDuncan
06-12-2005, 02:04 PM
Maybe I am missing something but I always mailed my application for Drivers Schools, herding trials etc so that it got there the day registrations opened. If I really wanted to get into a school or trial I Fedex it so I know it got there the first day. My suggestion is mail it so it gets there the first day registration opens. In the DC area that usually means the day before.

NExt year I probably have to Fedex my entry for the one of North America's biggest herding trial the Blue Grass in May so Duncan and I can go get our asses kicked by the best border collies in the country.

Dirichlet
06-12-2005, 03:26 PM
I'm now a sad, sad man...
Guess I'm on the wait list - I was really looking forward to this. Oh well, it's my fault for sending in the application a few days late :( .
How's it look for corner workers for this school (as in, are there any more needed)?

1996 328ti
06-12-2005, 03:50 PM
I don't know how we are set for corner workers. Email Steve Lowry. From what I understand we will be using BSR corner workers in addition in conjunction with NCC workers.

It is not necessary to send in registration applications overnight.
It is based on postmark. So if it takes 1 day or 5 days you are still on the top of the pile. Those received on the same day are sorted randomly. The database software gives each person a random number and it is sorted that way. I believe in making it as fair as possible. How people are accepted is all in the admissions policy.

Pinecone
06-14-2005, 05:15 PM
Steve,

Thanks for the info.

One thing, you say that student/instructor assignments are sometimes changed up to Sat morning. Earlier you stated that you could not fill opened slots (from cancellations) because the instructors were already assigned. These two don't quite match. :)

Also, I was asking that if the cutoff for pulling from the wait list is when instructor assignments are made, then publsih the DATE that is to happen, so that those on the wait list can get on with thier lives. I understand not publishing the actual assignments.

WRT collecting twice, has to do with cancellations. If I sign up, and cancel 3 weeks prior, and you fill the slot, why should I have to pay (not get a refund)? I can understand late cancellations that do not allow a slot to be filled.

It is great that so many people can plan ahead, but some of us can't. I was SURE I was going to make last Sunday's autoX at FedEx. But last Monday (once I arrived in Kenya) I found out I would not be getting home from Kenya until today. So no autoX. If it had been a DE, I would have been out some $350. NOT a good thing.

You are correct, racing doesn't have to deal with experience levels for run groups. And I was not intending to imply that they were similar. But, racing's flexibility better suits my job situation at this time. I can sign up at the last minute, and I can cancel at the last minute (without penalty, as long as I haven't turned a wheel on the track).

And for those who want just track time, get/buy/build/rent a race car, get your license and the day before most events is an open practice day. Show up with a legal car, current license, pay your fee, and get some 5 sessions of open track time, with unlimited passing. And you don't even have to attend the race. :) You can even do practice at National events with only a Regional license.

Rental race cars available include Spec Racer Fords, Formula SCCA, Radical sport racers, and GT Pinto cars in WDC region.

But every so often I will toss in an application for an NCC DE, but no longer expect to get in. :)

1996 328ti
06-14-2005, 06:09 PM
If an instructor doesn't show up on Saturday the assignment is going to change. It is a huge task making the assignments which needs to be done once with as little interference as possible.

I don't think the chief instructor will know what the cutoff date will be.
If there are two additional instructors 4 more students can be accepted. Some chapters have instructors that are wait listed. We do not have that luxury.

If you toss your application in the mail the first day you will get in. Unfortunately the nature of driving schools is that you must plan way ahead. We are no different than the other chapters I belong to.

NoSoup4U
06-15-2005, 10:38 AM
Steven -

What about doing something like NASA or other groups do (see my post in the VIR thread) .... they charge a processing/handling fee of $30.00 if you cancel your registration one week prior to the event. Thus, if it is later than one week, then no refund.

Might this not work with NCC? Charge people a processing fee -- but, at the same time, they get back $320.00 vs. $0.00 ... and, with one week before the event, it should allow time to fill in the spots since NCC events are pretty popular with people. If you get someone to fill your slot and it is one week before the event -- could this proposal work?

AlfaEric
06-15-2005, 10:50 AM
Steven -

What about doing something like NASA or other groups do (see my post in the VIR thread) .... they charge a processing/handling fee of $30.00 if you cancel your registration one week prior to the event. Thus, if it is later than one week, then no refund.

Might this not work with NCC? Charge people a processing fee -- but, at the same time, they get back $320.00 vs. $0.00 ... and, with one week before the event, it should allow time to fill in the spots since NCC events are pretty popular with people. If you get someone to fill your slot and it is one week before the event -- could this proposal work?
The problem with moving the date up and allowing people to drop out is it creates a lot more work for the registrar (who is already going to be busy). Contacting people a week before the event doesn't leave much time for them to confirm and get their car inspected. I believe NCC also typically mails out packets that I doubt would reach the new student in time.

---Eric

NoSoup4U
06-15-2005, 11:38 AM
I'll volunteer to undertake this effort re: handling the refunds and assisting the registrar since I would like to see this new policy take effect.

How about 7 business days before the event. This way, the registration packets can be mailed out 1.5 weeks before the event -- saving money on costs. It should only take 2 days, at the latest, to get to people.

Put that information on the sign-up .. e.g., registration packets should arrive 5 business days before the event with all pertinent information. If people are wait-listed, then, I will have their phone number and contact them to fill a spot when it opens. They'll have one day to respond to my voicemail/contact. If not, next person. I've talked to other clubs and they said the amount of people that actually withdraw is surprisingly few ... maybe 10% will withdraw -- which, in the grand scheme of things -- is not that many ...

Consider we accept 60 and at least 20 more are on the waitlist. I think we could fill those 6 slots fairly easily.

I am not saying contact ALL the people one week for the event ... What I am suggesting is that as soon as we hit the max. number allowed ... IMMEDIATELY notify all of them that they have been accepted and can tech their vehicles well before the event. However, registration packets assigning an instructor, run group, etc ... will all be mailed out one week before the event. The tech inspection form we should make available on this site for the people to download and bring to their mechanic.

AlfaEric
06-15-2005, 12:02 PM
We might only have 10% dropping out but I don't think they can just grab the next registration that came in. They have to match it up with the run group. Allowing more flexibility and less penalties for dropping out will dramatically increase that percentage. Sending things out in bulk and organizing people in batches saves a ton of time. Every time someone drops out of an autox slot, it takes me a lot more time to replace them than it did to originally register most of the rest of their heat.

The problem with calling and letting people have 1 day to respond is if you get multiple people who don't respond you can easily approach the event date and it will be too late to fill that slot.

I agree that much of the paperwork and notification could be put on the web and that could save some time. As more things are automated I think the process will be adjusted to accomodate the members better. I just wouldn't expect things to change too fast. A little progress will be made from each event.

---Eric

NoSoup4U
06-15-2005, 12:22 PM
You must not multi-task very well :P

1) I understand there are three run groups w/instructors (A, B, and C). So, you create three separate wait group lists. If a person drops out of A, then you contact the next person on list A. I am going to address your comebacks as well. If there is no one listed under A, then the person cannot get a refund unless there is a replacement person. So, this way, NCC is doing the most to accomodate a person; but, at the same time, not being too friendly. It will still discourage people from dropping out. This will expedite things having three separate wait group lists based on experience.

2) You might argue, not fair b/c a person in A group can wait and send in his registration and be ahead of someone that sent in their registration immediately and is wait-listed but in C group. I understand that conflict; but, I think given the choices -- refund vs. NO refund, the policy would be acceptable to most people. My suggestions will tick off some people; but, for the majority, it will be helpful ...

3) It is possible that multiple people will not respond if you call; but, you are playing devil's advocate here. The people on the waitlist SEND in their CHECKS. This is not as if we need them to pay. We can call them up and say, "you are in." The people on the waitlist ALSO have the responsibility to notify NCC if they do not want to be on the waitlist. If they do not want the slot, then they also lose $30.00 for withdrawing.

4) I realized that some will state, too much work for NCC to cut a check for $320.00 when person sends in $350.00. This is easily remedied. Tell people to send in two checks: One for $320.00 and one for $30.00. Yes, some people will bytch and moan about sending in two checks. Too bad is my response and deal with it. I would explain this allows a refund to be issued. If you send in $350.00 in a single check -- NO REFUND will be issued. So, if a person wants to send in one check -- let them at their own risk.

5) I suggest that NCC change their policies a bit. First, when all 60 entrants are reached -- contact all of them in one mass email notifying them have are in. Second, if they say they do not have email -- it is their responsiblity to call in for a status check (this takes the burden off the NCC registrar). Yes, I understand the registrar might get 60 phone calls then; but, this is no different now -- since the registrar's number is readily available to all that are interested. Third, every subsequent participant after that -- will be notified that they are wait-listed and on the A, B, or C waitlist and what their number is. Fourth, NCC will tell them, once a slot opens up, they will automatically be added and notified by email/phone at least 7 business days (tuesday night at midnight) before the event. Fifth, if all packets are mailed out 7 business days (on wednesday morning) before the event (assume saturday is the event) -- all of the packets should arrive by saturday, and monday at the latest.

I think the problem right now is that nothing is set in writing. It's too amorphous. I believe NCC is taking the easy way out -- just saying, "no refunds" b/c it's simpler and time-consuming to consider refunds. However, realistically, many of us have to travel, emergencies come up, car crashes, etc. To this end, giving people 7 business days before the event is quite generous ...

Autocross analogy is different IMO ... you are dealing with 3-4 times the number of students vs. HPDE's. I think HPDE registration can be stream-lined and made more efficient. If people think I am wrong, please feel free to comment; but, people's silence means, at least to me, they are in agreement with my proposal.

AlfaEric
06-15-2005, 12:58 PM
Multi-tasking isn't the issue for me. It's the time involved opening up all the files that track registrations. Databases, spreadsheets, autox software, text exports, emails.....

1) I believe they already do this. They would also have some people that are border-line between groups. In this case it is best to wait until the event is nearly full so you could put them in whichever group didn't have a decent waitlist.
2) I thought BMW did have a refund policy. It was just 30 days not 7. It says on the registration form (I don't feel like looking it up to confirm).
3) I like the idea of making it peoples responsibility to remove themselves from the waitlist but remember, it does add more work to the registrar.
4) Although I get it, I think it will confuse people.
5) I think the important thing is to notify people earlier for both accepted and waitlisted. If this is done on-line, it might help. Right now I don't think people know if they are accepted before the refund policy has passed. This is probably where the process needs the most work.

I agree that autocross is different in the number of applications but the amount of work to organize is much less. I really don't have to worry about experience levels when I place someone in a heat (unless I'm trying to avoid having multiple novices in a row). But, for autox, the cancellation rate is MUCH higher since we don't require prepayment and don't have penalties for no-shows. We had about a 25% cancellation rate for the autocross school. I haven't even bothered to track what the cancellation rate is for a normal autocross but I think it is a little less. Having a penalty is the easiest way to reduce the cancellations and ease the workload on the registrar. He is doing it on his own spare time and the registrants need to give him as much time as possible to accomodate his schedule. Yes, people have car problems, travel emergencies, etc... So does the registrar. We just need to give him extra time to organize everything.

I don't know about people's silence meaning they agree with you.... They just might not like typing that much. Phew, I'm exhausted. ;)

---Eric

NoSoup4U
06-15-2005, 01:31 PM
You know what, I am not going to argue with you. You can find holes in all of my arguments/suggestions. I know that. I made my suggestions and offered to assist since I recognize the add'l work that it would require to implement my suggestions. I am not saying "MY" suggestions are correct; but, I am at least trying to offer an alternative to the current policy/situation. I do not think it serves the "members" best interests. It may serve the Board's best interest; but, not the members.

NCC does have a 30 policy (refund). 30 days is an unreasonable amount of time, in my opinion, for a person to know that they cannot attend the event. 7 days is a lot shorter time period -- and gives much more flexibility to its members.

AlfaEric
06-15-2005, 02:30 PM
You know what, I am not going to argue with you. You can find holes in all of my arguments/suggestions. I know that. I made my suggestions and offered to assist since I recognize the add'l work that it would require to implement my suggestions. I am not saying "MY" suggestions are correct; but, I am at least trying to offer an alternative to the current policy/situation. I do not think it serves the "members" best interests. It may serve the Board's best interest; but, not the members.

NCC does have a 30 policy (refund). 30 days is an unreasonable amount of time, in my opinion, for a person to know that they cannot attend the event. 7 days is a lot shorter time period -- and gives much more flexibility to its members.
Ditto on the argument stuff... Like I really stand a chance against you (don't you get paid to argue?). I'm getting carpal tunnel from just this thread. I frequently like to take an opposing viewpoint just to help bounce ideas. I agree about many of the issues you have pointed out but want to point out some things that you might not be aware of. By bouncing ideas back and forth we have a better chance of stumbling across solutions. Besides, I can steal some of these ideas to help with the autox registrations. ;)

The problem with 7 days is it doesn't leave the club much time to contact a replacement. If the contact/registration/waitlist stuff was automated you might be able to work them down to 2 weeks. It is nice to give members an extra weekend to get their car prepped. Flexibility to the members is nice but after seeing some of the work involved, I think additional flexibility to the organizers is necessary.

From my viewpoint, cancellations are a pain. They really do take MUCH more time than registering a person (or batch of people) in the first place. This has just been my experience from autox but I know that even more thought goes into the DE registrations/packets/instructions. I can't imagine the work that has to be done to organize one of those events.

Steven has already mentioned that some of the work will be automated for next year. Since they will be reducing their workload they might be willing to adjust the cancellation/refund policy at the same time. If packets/tech forms are available online and acceptance is also available online, this would be a huge step forward. Although they still might make registration open 2 months before the event, they could allow refunds up until 2 weeks before the event. They need to make sure they can fill an event early enough or they will have to start advertising on different threads to assure it fills. Their workload for adjusting for cancellations will increase but it shouldn't be overwhelming if other work is decreased. I would prefer to have registration open 1 month in advance with a 7 day refund policy but I just don't see it as possible at this point. If our events (all run groups) were filling the first day then I think it might have a chance.

My biggest complaint was that I didn't know if I was accepted until after the cancellation deadline was past. If I found out I was put on the waitlist I would have liked to have the option to cancel without risking the money. I'm guessing they would have allowed this but I never needed to find out. Cancelling only takes me a second (just send an email) but it can take a couple days for the mail to arrive to tell me I got in. Had I given up and cancelled, it would have stunk to find out that I was actually accepted.

Remember that the NCC will fill an event but isn't looking for a profit. They can calculate the number of people they want to run and the amount they need to pay well in advance. If people don't show up, it only benefits the people who did show up (more seat time). The NCC isn't going to fill their slot AND take their money because they are just trying to break even. Yes, it would be nice to get more people off the waitlist but at some point you have to shut down registration and move on to the next step of running the event.

Careful what you offer... Someone "volunteered" me to help write an online registration form to help with autox. Next thing I know I'm registrar (and don't have time to write the form). I have had a couple offers to help with registration but it is very difficult to break up the job into smaller pieces. By the time I could break up tasks, assign/track them and put all the pieces back together when they were done, I think it would take me less time to do it myself. I've given away some of the work (thanks Adam). But it still isn't enough for me to start working on the form. There is no way I could do it during the autox season and I couldn't do it during the off season last year because I hadn't seen all the pieces needed yet.

---Eric

OwnedbyDuncan
06-15-2005, 08:24 PM
Why change the DS policies regarding refunds and cancellations when only a very few club members have problems with a policies that have been in effect and working fine for 99% fof DS entrants?

If you dont like the policies attend the board meetings. If that doesn't work run for office for NCC. If you dont like these two options quit bitching and whining like a ewe!

dave-m3fan
06-17-2005, 09:25 AM
Woody:

Any chance you'll be at Summit Point on Monday Tuesday?

-DF

Pinecone
06-20-2005, 09:47 PM
Some good stuff here. And even a volunteer to do the work and nothing but negative responses. Why not try it and see if it works? Not like this chapter hasn't tried oddball things before (priority based on previous events that year, auctioing DE slots on eBay).

BTW WRT track time, the open practice last Friday at Summit Point was 7 (yes SEVEN) track sessions. I was BEAT, but smiling. Not bad for $200 fee. And open passing. :) No sign up required, just show up, pay and have fun. Yes, you do have to have a legal race car and comp license, but those aren't hard to come up with.

Only strange thing was being passed by my own tire during the second qualifying session. :) More info (video to come later) at www.teamwtf.org

1996 328ti
06-21-2005, 06:47 AM
Some good stuff here. And even a volunteer to do the work and nothing but negative responses. Why not try it and see if it works? Not like this chapter hasn't tried oddball things before (priority based on previous events that year, auctioing DE slots on eBay).The priority based on events attended was an attempt to get more people to at least one school a year. The outcome was people would select 1 of the 4 weekends and attendance was lower than expected. Not such an odd ball idea. The idea was good but the result was bad. The DE slots on eBay was part of an April Fool's joke, albeit a week attempt at humor although at least one person wrote to me saying it wasn't fair.

Pinecone
06-24-2005, 09:08 PM
I am glad the chapter is trying things out to try to make it better.

And the eBay joke WAS very weak. :)