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Pete
02-23-2005, 10:25 PM
There was a thread in the later part of 2004 discussing possible changes and feedback on the current classing structure.

After discussing the rules with the Autocross committee and the NCC officers, I wanted make some rules clarifications for the 2005 season.

The rules have not changed in terms of classing however the showroom stock class has some ambiguity that need further definition.

1. In stock class you are allowed non-OEM replacement parts as long as they do not enhance the performance of the car.

For example, you are allowed to replace your shocks with non-OEM say with Bilstien HD but Koni Single adjustables will not be allowed.

Another example of this would be that if you need to replace your brakes you can replace them with non-OEM pads or rotors but they cannot be race or high performance type pads.

Another example is that Short Shifters will be allowed, as they do not improve performance.

Hopefully, this will illustrate the spirit of the rules. As with the past, if you feel that you car falls into a gray area, place yourself in the higher of the class.

2. The second clarification is that you are allowed to run any size tire and wheel as long as it was available on your year, make and model. You are also allowed a variation of +/-10mm in tire width.

I hope this helps everyone understand the spirit of the rules more effectively in the future.

Pete
NCC Autocross Chairman

AlfaEric
02-23-2005, 11:19 PM
Before people start asking... Chips, CAI and upgraded exhausts will also not be allowed in the showroom class.

---Eric
NCC Autocross Co-chair/Registrar

NoSoup4U
02-24-2005, 06:58 AM
Thank you Pete and Eric for your work in the rules. Are you sure about the SSK not enhancing performance = shorter throws = shorter time to shift = faster overall times. Or, are you defining performance as "power gains that alter the power output in some fashion" vs. "additions that can enhance the car's ability to run a faster lap time in autocross"? If the former, then most of my questions are moot, if the latter, then my questions have merit -- or so I like to tell myself :D

Second, how are bilstein's not enhancing performance? They have higher rebound and compression abilities than stock shocks.

Third, your definition of "high-performance" pad is a bit obtuse. Are axxis ultimates considered high performance? They provide better bite and grip than stock mintek's. Heck, pretty much anything provides better bite and grip than stock mintek's.

I appreciate your work guys -- I just think there is some ambiguity here still. Then again, you know what I do, I'll pick apart every word if you want me to :D

SMOODY
02-24-2005, 07:53 AM
I am also curious with regards to the definition of high performance pads. I would like to switch out my stock pads for some Hawk HPS pads. Would that violate the spirit of stock? I hope not, I really want to get rid of the stock pads and all the dust they create.

I have been debating putting on a set of upgraded sway bars, but I know that would push me out of the stock class. So I was considering just switching out my stock rubber sway bar bushings with urethane ones. I realize that this is probably in the grey area, but it doesn't seem as dramatic of a change as swapping the shocks.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

woodym3
02-24-2005, 09:56 AM
Has it ever been proven that a short shift linkage can actually improve performance? I've been beaten by one-thousandths of a second before, but it doesn't bother me if someone wants to spend the extra bucks for an questionable gain. Most courses only have one shift anyway.

Where do you draw the line on replacement shocks? Owners of older cars should be allowed to replace worn shocks. Kevin Henry's interpretation was if the car didn't come with adjustable shocks, you can't add adjustable shocks. I think that works good. Do you think we need to get so specific that there's a list of acceptable brand/model shocks?
Woody



[QUOTE=NoSoup4U]Thank you Pete and Eric for your work in the rules. Are you sure about the SSK not enhancing performance = shorter throws = shorter time to shift = faster overall times.
Second, how are bilstein's not enhancing performance? They have higher rebound and compression abilities than stock shocks.

Doby
02-24-2005, 10:02 AM
I still think the idea of not allowing SA's but allowing Bilsteins is not right.

The SA's are cheaper then the Bilsteins and they are the trend right now (not only because of the price, but also because the SA's ride 10x better). No one who runs the cars in the NCC Stock class is going to be adjusting the shocks to make the car perform better... and if they are, more power to them to try to win an NCC trophy.

IMO, the Bilsteins give a better advantage in autox with stock springs anyway due to the higher compression that they have over the SA's.

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 10:06 AM
It looks like Pete and I will have to come up with some clarifications to the clarifications. :icon_eyes

I'll try to post up some answers later today.

---Eric

jkuper
02-24-2005, 10:18 AM
OK, so to be clear, if you have an older car with worn-out shocks and rusted muffler, if you get a non-oem shock you can remain in stock class, but if you get a custom welded non-oem muffler from Midas you end up in prepared category?

How are we going to police brake pad choice?

Are NCC events really that competitive for showroom classes that SSK should influence the classing?

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 10:35 AM
James,
I've seen your car, there is NO way we are letting you in the showroom class. :p

Since most people rarely shift more than once per course we did not feel this would effect times significantly enough (if at all) to be considered a performance enhancement. We wanted to give some room in the showroom class or there wouldn't be many cars.

We decided the cutoff for shocks should be at the adjustability level to make things easier for everyone. We did not want to have to get to the level where we had to specify what brand and model are included and which are excluded.

Brakes were an issue we debated on for a while. There is always going to be some ambiguity with the rules unless we start specifying individual parts and brands. We don't want to do that. We decided it would be best to let the individuals regulate themselves with the "spirit of the rules".

SMOODY - If you are picking parts on you car just to stay within the BMW showroom class I would suggest you simply move to the prepared class. Just the fact you no longer have to worry when selecting parts might be worth it. ;)

---Eric

Pete
02-24-2005, 10:42 AM
OK, so to be clear, if you have an older car with worn-out shocks and rusted muffler, if you get a non-oem shock you can remain in stock class, but if you get a custom welded non-oem muffler from Midas you end up in prepared category?

How are we going to police brake pad choice?

Are NCC events really that competitive for showroom classes that SSK should influence the classing?


The spirit of the rules for Showroom stock is that maintenance items may be replaced with non-OEM parts so long as it does not enhance performance.

The shock example is merely used to illustrate that you can use an aftermarket shock so that you are not forced to buy the stock boge shocks that wear out in 40,000 miles. SA's would not be allowed though as you can fine tune them for better handling than stock.

This rule would apply to exhausts as well Jason. If you have a rusted out exhaust and you replace it with a Midas muffler that would be fine, as long as you didn't replace it with a HP muffler.

With regards to the break pads, any stock type replacement is fine as long as it doesn’t add breaking performance. With example to the Axis Ultimates I would say they fall into a grey area and thus puts you in the next higher class. For a pad that dusts less but maintains the same breaking performance that would fall into showroom.

Once again, if you feel that your car is ambiguous, you should class in the higher group.

Pete

PS- James, you car would never be considered "Stock". :icon_mrgr

adam
02-24-2005, 10:42 AM
yea the short shift seems like a moot point b/c most ppl don't shift more than once

as for the brake thing... i noticed a significant difference in brake power going from my GTI with mintex pads to the OEM on my BMW. brake dust aside, i think that 99% of aftermarket pads will outpeform the OEM ones by @<hidden> least a small margin, either with more braking power or more resistance to fade; correct me if I am wrong.

As for the shocks, they have to give some advantage over the stock ones, so shouldn't they be disallowed merely on that point of view?

NoSoup4U
02-24-2005, 10:43 AM
Dang, should not have said anything. The reason I mentioned the SSK is that the whole premise is to allow non-OEM replacements if they do not enhance performance.

Well, how is performance defined? It does not matter on whether SS is competitive or not. If the rules are going to be defined in a certain manner, let it be written so there is no ambiguity.

You do not need to police anything. If a person wishes to depart from what is allowed, then so be it. Let them depart and live with their own conscience about it. These are guidelines people should follow -- not steadfast rules.

I just wanted a clearer definition of what is considered "performance" enhancing mods. I would define it as parts that allow one to achieve a significant advantage in terms of handling, control, acceleration, and braking, over another competitor.

SSK would be allowed. Axxis Ultimates would be allowed. Aftermarket shocks such as SA's or Bilsteins with stock springs would be allowed IMO, since the combination of springs + shocks/struts would be a significant advantage; but, alone -- shocks do not provide a "significant" advantage. A significant advantage being herein defined as providing a clear, and demarcated driving advantage to an individual as recognized by participants in the sport.

In other words, if "x, y, and z" feel that it does offer some benefit; but, not a significant benefit ... then, it should be allowed. E.g., exhausts should be allowed as well if bought from Midas -- but, not from UUC/AA, etc that are dyno proven to provide add'l hp/tq benefits.

jkuper
02-24-2005, 10:49 AM
"Dyno proven"?? Are you kidding me? The CAI/Exhausts are probably the largest gray area in terms of any type of gains. Who is to say that Ireland Engineering exhaust for an E30 is any better than Midas built one?

Pete
02-24-2005, 10:52 AM
Dang, should not have said anything. The reason I mentioned the SSK is that the whole premise is to allow non-OEM replacements if they do not enhance performance.

Well, how is performance defined? It does not matter on whether SS is competitive or not. If the rules are going to be defined in a certain manner, let it be written so there is no ambiguity.

You do not need to police anything. If a person wishes to depart from what is allowed, then so be it. Let them depart and live with their own conscience about it. These are guidelines people should follow -- not steadfast rules.

I just wanted a clearer definition of what is considered "performance" enhancing mods. I would define it as parts that allow one to achieve a significant advantage in terms of handling, control, acceleration, and braking, over another competitor.

SSK would be allowed. Axxis Ultimates would be allowed. Aftermarket shocks such as SA's or Bilsteins with stock springs would be allowed IMO, since the combination of springs + shocks/struts would be a significant advantage; but, alone -- shocks do not provide a "significant" advantage. A significant advantage being herein defined as providing a clear, and demarcated driving advantage to an individual as recognized by participants in the sport.

In other words, if "x, y, and z" feel that it does offer some benefit; but, not a significant benefit ... then, it should be allowed. E.g., exhausts should be allowed as well if bought from Midas -- but, not from UUC/AA, etc that are dyno proven to provide add'l hp/tq benefits.

James, the idea is to limit the definition as there are too many areas that can be interpreted, hence the rather stringent rules of the past in showroom.

The idea of the language here is NON-OEM REPLACEMENT and not upgrade parts, I think the definition is fairly good. I don't want to sit and write every possible combination that would be allowed or not as that is not the goal of this exercise.

The idea is to clarify the spirit of the rules. I would say that if you are building your car to these specifications to gain advantage over a stock car with finding a fine line of what will be allowed an what is not, than you should go to the next class.

A rule of thumb that can be used is that if the advertising or marketing of a product indicates an increase in performance, than it will not be allowed.

Additionally- Upgrading to urethane bushings would be not allowed.



Pete

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 10:54 AM
Dang, should not have said anything. The reason I mentioned the SSK is that the whole premise is to allow non-OEM replacements if they do not enhance performance.

Yes, you shouldn't have said anything. These rules don't even effect you. Stop looking for loop-holes. :)


Well, how is performance defined? It does not matter on whether SS is competitive or not. If the rules are going to be defined in a certain manner, let it be written so there is no ambiguity.

There will always be some ambiguity unless we specify individual parts. We want to avoid that.


You do not need to police anything. If a person wishes to depart from what is allowed, then so be it. Let them depart and live with their own conscience about it. These are guidelines people should follow -- not steadfast rules.

Yes, the general rule is - if you think something is debatable then go up a class.


I just wanted a clearer definition of what is considered "performance" enhancing mods. I would define it as parts that allow one to achieve a significant advantage in terms of handling, control, acceleration, and braking, over another competitor.

Please define significant advantage.


SSK would be allowed. Axxis Ultimates would be allowed. Aftermarket shocks such as SA's or Bilsteins with stock springs would be allowed IMO, since the combination of springs + shocks/struts would be a significant advantage; but, alone -- shocks do not provide a "significant" advantage. A significant advantage being herein defined as providing a clear, and demarcated driving advantage to an individual as recognized by participants in the sport.

Thanks for defining significant advantage - can you please define demarcated driving advantage? :icon_eyes


In other words, if "x, y, and z" feel that it does offer some benefit; but, not a significant benefit ... then, it should be allowed. E.g., exhausts should be allowed as well if bought from Midas -- but, not from UUC/AA, etc that are dyno proven to provide add'l hp/tq benefits.
We are not going to exclude parts based on manufacturer. If UUC or AA come out with an OEM-type exhaust we would then have to alter our rules again to allow it. We believe our participants within the showroom class will regulate themselves with the intent we have expressed.

---Eric

Doby
02-24-2005, 10:57 AM
Hi Mr Newbie! We're sorry that you installed the Koni SA's because they were cheaper and ride better then the Bilsteins, but you have to run in the prep class and get slaughtered. Welcome to NCC Autox though. Have fun.

Allow SA's or do not allow aftermarket shocks at all. That's the fair thing to do.

jkuper
02-24-2005, 11:00 AM
How about this:

Showroom class may run any size wheel, any non-R tire, any shifter, any brake pad, any brand of shock absorber, any air filter or cat-back exhaust system.

Pete
02-24-2005, 11:03 AM
How about this:

Showroom class may run any size wheel, any non-R tire, any shifter, any brake pad, any brand of shock absorber, any air filter or cat-back exhaust system.

No

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 11:04 AM
Hi Mr Newbie! We're sorry that you installed the Koni SA's because they were cheaper and ride better then the Bilsteins, but you have to run in the prep class and get slaughtered. Welcome to NCC Autox though. Have fun.

Allow SA's or do not allow aftermarket shocks at all. That's the fair thing to do.
If people are modifying their car to the limit of the rules within the showroom class then a newbie will be "slaughtered" anyway. They should be concentrating on learning car control and having fun anyway.

The only reason Bilstein HD's would be allowed over SA's is to simplify the rules. We do not want to specify brands and models that can and cannot be used. I personally don't feel that Bilstein HD's go with the spirit of the rules but we are leaving that up to the individual. We just wanted to allow people to replace their worn shocks yet we needed to provide a clearly defined limit.

---Eric

NoSoup4U
02-24-2005, 11:08 AM
"Dyno proven"?? Are you kidding me? The CAI/Exhausts are probably the largest gray area in terms of any type of gains. Who is to say that Ireland Engineering exhaust for an E30 is any better than Midas built one?

You need me to read your contracts from now on. You are not reading closely and reading something in there that is not ;) ...

I said "dyno-proven" meaning there is verifiable evidence that it provides some gain. I am not talking about the merit of the claims,e.g, if it makes power or not, -- just the fact that it "is" claimed that the item provides a performance enhancement.

jkuper
02-24-2005, 11:09 AM
The rules are simplified with my post above, but you guys want to be complicated and dictate brands and such. We want to attract new people who have never autocrossed before and put a new muffler or intake in their car because it sounds/looks better or perhaps even purchased their car that way. So, what now, let's stick them in prepared class, where they won't do as well and perhaps be embarrassed, lose interest, etc? That's an excellent idea!

jkuper
02-24-2005, 11:11 AM
You need me to read your contracts from now on. You are not reading closely and reading something in there that is not ;) ...

I said "dyno-proven" meaning there is verifiable evidence that it provides some gain. I am not talking about the merit of the claims,e.g, if it makes power or not, -- just the fact that it "is" claimed that the item provides a performance enhancement.

Are we really going to make a 5-10hp CLAIMED gain or 10lb weight loss important for classing structure?

BTW, Ireland Engineering exhaust does not claim any performance gains. I was put into prepared class for having it on the car last year, not that I cared too much about it at that point.

Edited

Doby
02-24-2005, 11:12 AM
No aftermarket shocks in stock class. That's the only fair way, but do what you want. I'm not one to say that I don't care about the class because it's obvious what class I'm. I care about the program, and the growth of it. Allowing Bilsteins seems to be from a hiden agenda or something...

NoSoup4U
02-24-2005, 11:14 AM
Yes, you shouldn't have said anything. These rules don't even effect you. Stop looking for loop-holes.
---Eric

C'mon, you said I could replace any OEM part with a non-OEM part that does not enhance performance.

My dogs pooped on my entire interior, including carpets, and miraculously, they even managed to get some on the rear deck shelf lid -- I don't want to replace it with a non-OEM part and I cannot afford the OEM part. Thus, I should be allowed to run in stock :D :D

I get what you guys are saying though. I'm just being difficult because I KNOW how Pete and Eric are reacting behind their keyboards right now. ;) ;) ....

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 11:15 AM
You need me to read your contracts from now on. You are not reading closely and reading something in there that is not ;) ...

I said "dyno-proven" meaning there is verifiable evidence that it provides some gain. I am not talking about the merit of the claims,e.g, if it makes power or not, -- just the fact that it "is" claimed that the item provides a performance enhancement.
Try to think of how many aftermarket parts don't claim a performance enhancement. Most are going to claim some type of improvement. It helps sales. I don't want people bringing printouts of ads or packaging to prove something isn't a performance enhancement.

---Eric

NoSoup4U
02-24-2005, 11:16 AM
Are we really going to make a 5-10hp CLAIMED gain or 10lb weight loss important for classing structure?

BTW, Ireland Engineering exhaust does not claim any performance gains. I was put into prepared class for having it on the car last year, not that I cared too much about it at that point.

Edited

Here's my erudited answer: BAH!! :D

I get what you are saying ;)

Pete
02-24-2005, 11:54 AM
The rules are simplified with my post above, but you guys want to be complicated and dictate brands and such. We want to attract new people who have never autocrossed before and put a new muffler or intake in their car because it sounds/looks better or perhaps even purchased their car that way. So, what now, let's stick them in prepared class, where they won't do as well and perhaps be embarrassed, lose interest, etc? That's an excellent idea!


That's what it was last year. Those people still would have gone into Prepared.

Pete

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 12:21 PM
No aftermarket shocks in stock class. That's the only fair way, but do what you want. I'm not one to say that I don't care about the class because it's obvious what class I'm. I care about the program, and the growth of it. Allowing Bilsteins seems to be from a hiden agenda or something...
To some extent I agree with you about not allowing Bilsteins. Please read my previous response:


The only reason Bilstein HD's would be allowed over SA's is to simplify the rules. We do not want to specify brands and models that can and cannot be used. I personally don't feel that Bilstein HD's go with the spirit of the rules but we are leaving that up to the individual. We just wanted to allow people to replace their worn shocks yet we needed to provide a clearly defined limit.

We had to leave some flexibility within the showroom class or it would be empty.

Maybe I'm missing something with the hidden agenda comment but I find your insinuations insulting. I have tried to respond to every question/issue that has been brought to my attention openly. If you have a problem please contact Pete or me personally or post exactly what you have on your mind. There is no hidden agenda. We have posted our reasons behind the clarifications.

I realize that you have the best intentions for program in mind and I appreciate that. If we have not made our intentions clear in written form, I appologize and would be more than willing to discuss it with you over the phone. If you posted it as a joke to irritate me (as James has been) well, then you got me. :icon_eyes

---Eric

Doby
02-24-2005, 12:35 PM
Since neither you or Pete would be running in that class, why would you have an agenda, so therefore that comment was not abou you. You're a smart cookie, you should have known that.

Ok, answer these scenarios/questions for me.

You have no idea that you will want to autox in the future, but your shocks are on their way out. You look around and find out that Koni SA's are cheaper then Bilsteins, AND they ride better then Bilsteins. What would you buy? Now jump ahead to showing up for an NCC autox. How would you feel to know that you are now bumped up in a class with much faster cars/driver because you bought the less expensive/better riding shocks? I'd be a little upset. While the person should not be worried about competition, it's human nature. And anyone coming out to a timed event is going to be competitive.

Bilstein/SA or nothing is the ONLY fair route. "FAIR" is the key term in this thread.

jkuper
02-24-2005, 12:40 PM
I have tried to respond to every question/issue that has been brought to my attention openly. If you have a problem please contact Pete or me personally or post exactly what you have on your mind. There is no hidden agenda. We have posted our reasons behind the clarifications.

---Eric


No

Oh, yes, this was "openly". Whatever you guys want to do. I stated my reasons behind being flexible in the showroom class and attracting new people. I know what class I fall in.

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 01:09 PM
Since neither you or Pete would be running in that class, why would you have an agenda, so therefore that comment was not abou you. You're a smart cookie, you should have known that.

Then why was the comment made? :confused:


Ok, answer these scenarios/questions for me.

You have no idea that you will want to autox in the future, but your shocks are on their way out. You look around and find out that Koni SA's are cheaper then Bilsteins, AND they ride better then Bilsteins. What would you buy? Now jump ahead to showing up for an NCC autox. How would you feel to know that you are now bumped up in a class with much faster cars/driver because you bought the less expensive/better riding shocks? I'd be a little upset. While the person should not be worried about competition, it's human nature. And anyone coming out to a timed event is going to be competitive.

Bilstein/SA or nothing is the ONLY fair route. "FAIR" is the key term in this thread.
Strange... When I priced them for my car the SA's were MORE expensive. People also recommended that I shouldn't get adjustable shocks since I would not know how to tune them. Obviously I ignored them. ;)

So for your first question what would I buy? If I wasn't autocrossing... I would get whatever was cheapest. Most likely whatever the dealer recommended. So I guess I would be on OEM shocks.

You next question... "How would you feel to know that you are now bumped up in a class with much faster cars/driver because you bought the less expensive/better riding shocks?" You are new, there are going to be faster drivers out there. That is to be expected. Now, would I care because I "bought less expensive/better riding shocks" and was put into a class for non-showroom cars? No. I would know I have upgraded something on my car and would accept that. When I changed my suspension I went from a FStock car to DSP (SCCA classing). Did I know that was going to happen? No. Did I feel it was fair? No. Do I now realize there was a reason for it? Yes, I have accepted it and moved on.

There are an infinite amount of scenarios. We aren't going to be able to make everyone happy. How can you expect us to account for people who are imaginary? There is no such thing as a "FAIR" classing system. If we accounted for every different car possibility then we would have 90 classes for 90 cars/drivers. There isn't much competition if there isn't anyone in your class.

---Eric

John V
02-24-2005, 01:14 PM
Might I suggest we look at what people typically do to their cars in the interest of drivability, maintenance, convenience, and put those mods into the "showroom" class? It's not as though a guy with Koni SAs is going to slaughter a guy with Bilsteins. So why disallow them? It's a common mod to replace the junk that comes stock. To 99% of people who are going to be coming to our autocrosses it will not make a difference in their times. Right?

Same with the pads. If someone wants to run full race compound pads at an autocross, more power to them. I guarantee they would be faster on the stockers. No, more likely they are going to replace the pads with a low dust pad or a high performance street pad. This will be impossible to police anyway. Brake pads should be free.

edit, aren't these autocrosses supposed to be FUN? :)

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 01:17 PM
Oh, yes, this was "openly". Whatever you guys want to do. I stated my reasons behind being flexible in the showroom class and attracting new people. I know what class I fall in.
If we took your suggestion then the Prepared classes would be empty and Showroom would be HUGE!

I am curious if anyone who is arguing the rules is actually affected by them.

---Eric

John V
02-24-2005, 01:22 PM
If we took your suggestion then the Prepared classes would be empty and Showroom would be HUGE!

I am curious if anyone who is arguing the rules is actually affected by them.

---Eric
Obviously it's not affecting me. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning.

Jed
02-24-2005, 01:31 PM
Might I suggest we look at what people typically do to their cars in the interest of drivability, maintenance, convenience, and put those mods into the "showroom" class? It's not as though a guy with Koni SAs is going to slaughter a guy with Bilsteins. So why disallow them? It's a common mod to replace the junk that comes stock. To 99% of people who are going to be coming to our autocrosses it will not make a difference in their times. Right?

Same with the pads. If someone wants to run full race compound pads at an autocross, more power to them. I guarantee they would be faster on the stockers. No, more likely they are going to replace the pads with a low dust pad or a high performance street pad. This will be impossible to police anyway. Brake pads should be free.

edit, aren't these autocrosses supposed to be FUN? :)

*Ding!*

Didn't want to, but I will chime in.

If you recall last year, after piquing their interest-we had a nice influx of new autoxers that were attracted from a certain messageboard that several of us frequent.

Most of these guys are of the "modding the car first" mindset, as seemingly a majority of them of their age group are. Nothing wrong with that, I know I did the same thing before I started autoxing. And now they are discovering that there is a safe place to put their car through the paces.

Quite a few of these cars are "prepared" per these rules. As JV was saying-this is about having fun. If you want to split hairs and be cut throat, there is SCCA.

But to me as a newbie wanting to sample it, NCC is a great environment to start out. Why stymie that fun, laid back, learning environment? Not saying throw the new guy with the S/C 328is with the high end c/o suspension he read about in stock class, but let's not penalize those guys with basic "mods." As several have said, most people when replacing OEM parts tend to replace with something better.

ah, screw it. [EDITED]

Jed
NCC Autocross Opinion Chairman

Pete
02-24-2005, 01:34 PM
What you guys are discussing right now are the specific reasons that we created the prepared class last year.

If you recall the previous classing, they had a stock class and an anything goes class where any mod to suspension etc... would put you in the modified group with people like James S and Kevin, who run very modified cars and R Comps.

The prepared class is specifically geared for the people who have bolt on modifications to their car that and they can be competitive in that group (with the proper driving experience) without R's. It also allows showroom cars with R's as we found that they are very competitive (time wise) with the cars that are modded but don't have R's. Novices can do just fine in the prepared class.

I know because I argued this at the classing meeting last year.

Pete

John V
02-24-2005, 01:39 PM
Pete, the prepared class structure makes a lot of sense as it stands, because it allows SCCA Stock set-up cars (like mine used to be) with R Comps AND STS set up cars with streets. So it encompassed a ton of people with common mods. But the mods that were allowed would actually help performance, even for a novice driver. A complete novice in my car with R's would be a lot faster than a complete novice in my car without R's, right?

A complete novice in a car he just drove off the showroom floor is not going to be any slower than a complete novice in the same car with Konis.

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 01:41 PM
Might I suggest we look at what people typically do to their cars in the interest of drivability, maintenance, convenience, and put those mods into the "showroom" class? It's not as though a guy with Koni SAs is going to slaughter a guy with Bilsteins. So why disallow them? It's a common mod to replace the junk that comes stock. To 99% of people who are going to be coming to our autocrosses it will not make a difference in their times. Right?

Same with the pads. If someone wants to run full race compound pads at an autocross, more power to them. I guarantee they would be faster on the stockers. No, more likely they are going to replace the pads with a low dust pad or a high performance street pad. This will be impossible to police anyway. Brake pads should be free.

edit, aren't these autocrosses supposed to be FUN? :)
The reason behind the decision was to keep things simple. By telling people one shock is okay but this other brand isn't would be a disaster. When I started autocrossing there was no way I would have been able to tell you what brand of shocks I had on my car but if you asked me if they were adjustable I probably could have answered that. I was new and didn't know much about my car... To be asking every new person what kind of brakes, shocks, etc. before we can class them isn't fun.

I can imagine the conversation now:
New Person: Hi, I don't know what class I'm in.
Registration: Okay, please drive your car around so we can put it on the lift. Someone pass me the impact gun so I can check the brakes. Don't worry, we'll have your classing sorted out before the next event. :D

Remeber that I sit at registration and get these questions often. When someone is unsure about their class I just ask them what they have done to the car. *Usually* people have already added a chip, intake or exhaust before they start upgrading their shocks. If they say nothing then I can put them in Showroom or showroom M. Very easy.

If people want to be "FAIR" about the rules and are running Bilstein HD's and Race pads or some other upgrade then just move yourself into the prepared class. If you are looking for loopholes then you probably don't belong in the showroom class. It's as simple as that.

---Eric

jkuper
02-24-2005, 01:43 PM
What you guys are discussing right now are the specific reasons that we created the prepared class last year.

If you recall the previous classing, they had a stock class and an anything goes class where any mod to suspension etc... would put you in the modified group with people like James S and Kevin, who run very modified cars and R Comps.

The prepared class is specifically geared for the people who have bolt on modifications to their car that and they can be competitive in that group (with the proper driving experience) without R's. It also allows showroom cars with R's as we found that they are very competitive (time wise) with the cars that are modded but don't have R's. Novices can do just fine in the prepared class.

I know because I argued this at the classing meeting last year.

Pete

As far as I recall Kevin ran H&R/Bilsteins in prepared category.

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 01:44 PM
Pete, the prepared class structure makes a lot of sense as it stands, because it allows SCCA Stock set-up cars (like mine used to be) with R Comps AND STS set up cars with streets. So it encompassed a ton of people with common mods. But the mods that were allowed would actually help performance, even for a novice driver. A complete novice in my car with R's would be a lot faster than a complete novice in my car without R's, right?

A complete novice in a car he just drove off the showroom floor is not going to be any slower than a complete novice in the same car with Konis.
I don't remember but did we used to have a novice class?

---Eric

NoSoup4U
02-24-2005, 01:46 PM
What you guys are discussing right now are the specific reasons that we created the prepared class last year.

If you recall the previous classing, they had a stock class and an anything goes class where any mod to suspension etc... would put you in the modified group with people like James S and Kevin, who run very modified cars and R Comps.

The prepared class is specifically geared for the people who have bolt on modifications to their car that and they can be competitive in that group (with the proper driving experience) without R's. It also allows showroom cars with R's as we found that they are very competitive (time wise) with the cars that are modded but don't have R's. Novices can do just fine in the prepared class.

I know because I argued this at the classing meeting last year.

Pete

I don't understand, can you explain that again please? :D :D

Yes, there was a novice class before. JD won it .... in his SM-prepped car :mad: :D

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 01:56 PM
I don't understand, can you explain that again please? :D

Yes, there was a novice class before. JD won it .... in his SM-prepped car :mad: :D
:icon_lol:

---Eric

John V
02-24-2005, 01:59 PM
You guys bring up good points.

Here's how I see it. Someone buys a used BMW. They take it to a local shop (non-dealer of course) and tell them it's feeling loose, that the suspension needs work. The shop tells them that their shocks are worn out. You can get the factory stuff, but it's expensive and wears out quickly. But here are these two different shocks - these are slightly cheaper and ride better and have a lifetime warranty. So that's what the guy picks. He didn't see it as a "mod." It's not like he went out looking for horsepower. He didn't lower the thing.

Common sense says this would never happen with a DA koni, or a moton, penske, etc...

Furthermore, if someone really wanted to build a "ringer" in the showroom class he/she could just have their bilsteins revalved to be like Konis. So we're in the same boat here.

:shrug

Doby
02-24-2005, 01:59 PM
No, Fatih and I tied for it.

Pete
02-24-2005, 02:03 PM
As far as I recall Kevin ran H&R/Bilsteins in prepared category.

Kevin had the option to run in prepared when he didn't use the R comps (he still ran in modified because there are no points transfers). When he ran the R's he ran in the modified group.

I think you guys are getting hung up on this SA thing. Most people that are looking to replace their shocks will not gravitate to the SA's, they have options to buy Boge or Sachs, Bilstein or Koni Non adjustables. All of those would be allowed. I'm sorry this doesn't fit in with the SCCA classing structure but we do not allow many things that the SCCA stock does with their stock class.

Pete

Doby
02-24-2005, 02:03 PM
You guys bring up good points.

Here's how I see it. Someone buys a used BMW. They take it to a local shop (non-dealer of course) and tell them it's feeling loose, that the suspension needs work. The shop tells them that their shocks are worn out. You can get the factory stuff, but it's expensive and wears out quickly. But here are these two different shocks - these are slightly cheaper and ride better and have a lifetime warranty. So that's what the guy picks. He didn't see it as a "mod." It's not like he went out looking for horsepower. He didn't lower the thing.

Common sense says this would never happen with a DA koni, or a moton, penske, etc...

Furthermore, if someone really wanted to build a "ringer" in the showroom class he/she could just have their bilsteins revalved to be like Konis. So we're in the same boat here.

:shrug

Add the tech then says "Bilsteins are $630 and Koni SA's are $520 and the Koni's ride better."

jkuper
02-24-2005, 02:41 PM
Kevin had the option to run in prepared when he didn't use the R comps (he still ran in modified because there are no points transfers). When he ran the R's he ran in the modified group.

I think you guys are getting hung up on this SA thing. Most people that are looking to replace their shocks will not gravitate to the SA's, they have options to buy Boge or Sachs, Bilstein or Koni Non adjustables. All of those would be allowed. I'm sorry this doesn't fit in with the SCCA classing structure but we do not allow many things that the SCCA stock does with their stock class.

Pete

I am still hung up on the darn CAI/exhaust thing :)

Nick325xiT 5spd
02-24-2005, 02:54 PM
I happen to think that Showroom stock should be showroom stock.

You could allow non-OEM, non-adjustable replacement parts for cars greater than, say 3 or 5 years old. Newer than that, and they're probably modding for performance and should go to the Prepared class.

Doby
02-24-2005, 03:09 PM
But I know of a 95 M3 with only 47k miles on the suspension, and I also know a 2002 325 with over 100k on the suspension.

All or nothing.

SMOODY
02-24-2005, 03:09 PM
Wow. This is quite a discussion. Very educational. I guess this what you guys do on snowy days. Not that there is anything wrong with that ;-)

I agree with the fact that the Autocrosses are meant to be fun. I participated in a couple last year and had a blast. I got creamed in stock class in my 525iT, but I still had fun. This year I am hoping to do better in the 330i.

Since we are on the subject of mods, classification, and fairness. I have another question for you guys to consider. Is a 330i with a Performance Package (ZHP) still considered stock? Compared to a regular 330i, it has a stiffer suspension, lower ride height, shorter rear drive ratio, different alignment settings, and 10 additional HP.

If it is considered "stock", can I make the same mods to my 330i and call my car stock? Given the responses so far, it would appear that the answer is no.

Nick325xiT 5spd
02-24-2005, 03:13 PM
But I know of a 95 M3 with only 47k miles on the suspension, and I also know a 2002 325 with over 100k on the suspension.

All or nothing.
Then allow single adjustable shocks. The notion that you can have Bilsteins, but not Konis is really quite silly.

Doby
02-24-2005, 03:14 PM
Then allow single adjustable shocks. The notion that you can have Bilsteins, but not Konis is really quite silly.

EXACTLY!!!!!

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 04:07 PM
But I know of a 95 M3 with only 47k miles on the suspension, and I also know a 2002 325 with over 100k on the suspension.

All or nothing.
The "All or nothing" rule was seriously considered. The issue with it was we would still be having an argument from anyone (or even the same people who are arguing and not in that class :icon_roll ) who has replaced their shocks and didn't go for upgraded shocks and are now being moved into Prepared. The SA limitation was put there as a guideline. If someone has replaced their shocks with Bilstein HD's they probably should register for Prepared anyway. The fact is I'm not going to argue with them and I no intention of looking under every showroom car to verify what type of shock they have replaced.

As pointed out earlier... This is supposed to be fun (and educational). If strict competition is what someone is looking for then they should consider SCCA's venues. We are trying to keep things as fair as possible without having empty classes.

---Eric

Jed
02-24-2005, 04:11 PM
Since we are on the subject of mods, classification, and fairness. I have another question for you guys to consider. Is a 330i with a Performance Package (ZHP) still considered stock? Compared to a regular 330i, it has a stiffer suspension, lower ride height, shorter rear drive ratio, different alignment settings, and 10 additional HP.


That should be stock in NCC since the ZHP package is a factory option.

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 04:14 PM
Wow. This is quite a discussion. Very educational. I guess this what you guys do on snowy days. Not that there is anything wrong with that ;-)

I agree with the fact that the Autocrosses are meant to be fun. I participated in a couple last year and had a blast. I got creamed in stock class in my 525iT, but I still had fun. This year I am hoping to do better in the 330i.

Since we are on the subject of mods, classification, and fairness. I have another question for you guys to consider. Is a 330i with a Performance Package (ZHP) still considered stock? Compared to a regular 330i, it has a stiffer suspension, lower ride height, shorter rear drive ratio, different alignment settings, and 10 additional HP.

If it is considered "stock", can I make the same mods to my 330i and call my car stock? Given the responses so far, it would appear that the answer is no.
Nah, this is how we spend our days at work. ;)

Here are how the rules are posted (same as last year):


This class is stock. The car MUST be as available from the factory. This will allow for wheel changes, but they must be in a size available as an option on the car. The intention for this class is that aftermarket factory style parts can be replaced. So you can use non-adjustable shocks, any brake pads, rotors (no slotted or cross-drilled, just any manufacturer), any type of street tire (not R-Compounds), or minor appearance items such as different bumpers due to crash repairs. CG-Lock seat belt restraints will be allowed.

---Eric

woodym3
02-24-2005, 07:05 PM
With example to the Axis Ultimates I would say they fall into a grey area and thus puts you in the next higher class.
Pete

FWIW, I recently switched from OEM to Axxis Ultimates and can tell no difference in performance.
Woody
(not running Showroom Class this year anyway)

BahnBaum
02-24-2005, 07:27 PM
The SA limitation was put there as a guideline. If someone has replaced their shocks with Bilstein HD's they probably should register for Prepared anyway. The fact is I'm not going to argue with them and I no intention of looking under every showroom car to verify what type of shock they have replaced.

Now I'm confused. Since most people want to comply with the spirit of the rule, if the rule limits SAs, why should someone with Bilstein's "probably register for Prepared anyway."?

Alex

Doby
02-24-2005, 07:31 PM
No comment.

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 08:12 PM
Now I'm confused. Since most people want to comply with the spirit of the rule, if the rule limits SAs, why should someone with Bilstein's "probably register for Prepared anyway."?

Alex
According to the rules clarification, Bilstein's are allowed in Showroom. My comment of "probably register for Prepared" was simply a suggestion.

---Eric

BahnBaum
02-24-2005, 09:01 PM
According to the rules clarification, Bilstein's are allowed in Showroom. My comment of "probably register for Prepared" was simply a suggestion.

---Eric

That's what's confusing me, Eric. Because I'm the type that wants to follow the spirit of the rule, why the suggestion that the stock car with Bilsteins should run prepared?

I'm the kinda guy that still has an SSK he bought from James sitting in my garage because I ran showroom last year.

Alex

jkuper
02-24-2005, 09:09 PM
Your comments about "looking under cars and checking shocks" has no place if we are suppose to use the honor system and not police anyone.

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 09:22 PM
That's what's confusing me, Eric. Because I'm the type that wants to follow the spirit of the rule, why the suggestion that the stock car with Bilsteins should run prepared?

I'm the kinda guy that still has an SSK he bought from James sitting in my garage because I ran showroom last year.

Alex
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm tired and grumpy.

They are allowed. Both SSKs and non-adjustable shocks. If you feel that your shocks offer a significant improvement over the stock class then "consider" moving into the prepared. It is your choice, it is NOT a requirement.

The idea of this thread was to clarify things. I guess that didn't work. :(

---Eric

AlfaEric
02-24-2005, 09:31 PM
Your comments about "looking under cars and checking shocks" has no place if we are suppose to use the honor system and not police anyone.
Correct.

---Eric

Doby
02-24-2005, 10:09 PM
Alex, you can have the Bilsteins revalved (within stock rules) to any valving you want. I'd suggest more bound and maybe a little more rebound. That's well within the rules, just make sure they aren't adjustable.

BahnBaum
02-24-2005, 10:17 PM
Alex, you can have the Bilsteins revalved (within stock rules) to any valving you want. I'd suggest more bound and maybe a little more rebound. That's well within the rules, just make sure they aren't adjustable.

Cool. But what do I do about urethane subframe bushings and rtabs? <g>

Alex

Doby
02-24-2005, 10:22 PM
Sorry, you're SOL of with those. :)

jkuper
02-24-2005, 10:24 PM
Why? It's not in the rules, therefore must be ok.

Doby
02-24-2005, 10:28 PM
AWESOME!!!!! Bushings and revalved Bilsteins in stock class!!!!! WOOT!

You know, if I was rich, that's what I'd do... build a car to the stock class NCC rules and beat the prepared cars and maybe some mod cars too.

jkuper
02-24-2005, 10:47 PM
Just don't make any performance gains in regards to DMG exhaust and you'll be all set!

Jed
02-24-2005, 10:53 PM
Unless it's too loud. Then we will pistol whip you.

Jed
NCC Autocross Opinion Chairman (just in case you didn't see it before)

woodym3
02-26-2005, 11:35 AM
You have no idea that you will want to autox in the future, but your shocks are on their way out. You look around and find out that Koni SA's are cheaper then Bilsteins, AND they ride better then Bilsteins. What would you buy? Now jump ahead to showing up for an NCC autox. How would you feel to know that you are now bumped up in a class with much faster cars/driver because you bought the less expensive/better riding shocks? I'd be a little upset. While the person should not be worried about competition, it's human nature. And anyone coming out to a timed event is going to be competitive.

Bilstein/SA or nothing is the ONLY fair route. "FAIR" is the key term in this thread.

You can use the same argument for the person that added plus 1 wheels to his otherwise stock car because they enhanced the looks.
Woody

woodym3
02-26-2005, 11:42 AM
Might I suggest we look at what people typically do to their cars in the interest of drivability, maintenance, convenience, and put those mods into the "showroom" class? It's not as though a guy with Koni SAs is going to slaughter a guy with Bilsteins. So why disallow them? It's a common mod to replace the junk that comes stock. To 99% of people who are going to be coming to our autocrosses it will not make a difference in their times. Right?


Doesn't this bring us back to the "Stock" class we had before 2004?

Doby
02-26-2005, 01:07 PM
You can use the same argument for the person that added plus 1 wheels to his otherwise stock car because they enhanced the looks.
Woody

That's a good point. But what I'm trying to say/ask is why are Bilsteins allowed; but Koni's are not? I don't think the Bilsteins should be allowed in the stock class at all, but if they are allowed, then the Koni SA's should be too. Some cars (ie E36) cannot get non-adjustable Koni's. They only may SA's for them. It seems that the decision has already been made about allowing the Bilsteins, so that's why I've taken the view that I have.

woodym3
02-26-2005, 02:16 PM
That's a good point. But what I'm trying to say/ask is why are Bilsteins allowed; but Koni's are not? I don't think the Bilsteins should be allowed in the stock class at all, but if they are allowed, then the Koni SA's should be too. Some cars (ie E36) cannot get non-adjustable Koni's. They only may SA's for them. It seems that the decision has already been made about allowing the Bilsteins, so that's why I've taken the view that I have.

I am just reading the rules for the new Car and Driver sponsored autocross series (www.precisionracing.org). The car classes are based on a points based system where each modification is assigned a point value. I find it interesting that they give 20 points for a underdrive pulley, 20 points for an ECU chip, 50 points for aftermarket springs, and 100 POINTS for non-standard shocks with one points of adjustment (200 points for non-standard shocks with two points of adjustment). Presumably there are no points for Bilsteins. Obviously they think adjustable shocks can make a huge difference in performance.

Pinecone
03-07-2005, 09:42 AM
Funny thing, if these changes are to make thing SIMPLE, why do we have 8 PAGES of discussion.

And since I think I started the discussion last year, my take:

Allow any "normal street shock." Basicaly exclude DA or TA or remote resevoir. Bilstein, Koni SA, Boge, Tokico, or whatever, no more than SA. If you exclude Koni SAs, you SHOULD exclude Bilstein HDs (maybe allow Bilstein Tourings).

ANY brake pad. OEM type rotors, and lines. Not worth trying to even CARE about what brake pads. Otherwise you get into spliting hairs. Axxis Metal Masters were borught out originally as RACE pads. So are they legal? Ultimates are street pads, but better performing pads than MMs, so are they lega? SIMPLIFY, ANY pads.

ANY air filter, but in the stock air box. Why would we be wanted to look in air boxes. CAIs move up, no question.

ANY stock width available on the car. This allows the occasional plus 1 person. Does it help, yeah a bit, but not as much as going wider.

ANY street tire (set UTG wear number, like say 140 or even 160). I was going to say any size that will fit, but at the last minute thought that wider fronts do give a significant advantage to those wthat do this. I have no problem with the +/- 10 mm in section size.

Any CAT back exhaust. Again too many choices, and who is going to say what is legal and what is not. Which one is better? Hek the combined wisdom of the entire BMW world can't figure that one out. Just must be reasaonbly quiet, even if we have to set dB levels (a simple sound level meter can be bought at Radio Shack).

All other parts would be factory, or equivalent. No urethane bushings, no sways, no springs.

These rules would be (along with the OEM replacement rule inplace) simple, effective, and fair to the majority of people. No matter what you do, other than bone stock, all factory parts, is going to allow some playing with the rules. But the more ambiguous you make them, the more likley you are to get people into the spirit of ignoring the rules.

Also look at it this way, how would you like to administer these rules at a protest hearing? Make it simply on yourself in the long run.

Doby
03-07-2005, 09:48 AM
Obviously they think adjustable shocks can make a huge difference in performance.

And they can in the right hands... but CCA stock class most likely isn't going to have the "right hands" running the car. Those people are also those who will be running the SCCA autoxes and will have front bars, etc.

Bilsteins allowed and Koni's not, is not right IMO, sorry.

M-technik-3
03-16-2005, 08:47 PM
Newbie to NCC rules but they are far differant then my previous chapter rules that Boston CCA has. Your rules put me totally out of any reasonable contention.

I might be forced to run my other car which is stock except springs and shocks and I bought it that way, oh wait that's prepared not stock. Oh and needs a muffler also so must go buy a ansa unit that will rot off in 15 months.

Looks like I might stick to Drivers schools or look for another auto-x series.

Seems to me is that BMW CCA needs to set nationwide auto X classes, and rules to simplfy when you move.

woodym3
03-16-2005, 09:56 PM
I'd be curiious to know what car you have and what you've done to your car that takes you out of contention in our various classes. I know Boston Chapter uses a very complicated point system to class cars. National Capital has looked at that system and said "no thanks".

A national system won't work for all chapters. The last time I looked, Oktoberfest used about 20 classes and that seems to work with anywhere from 100 to 200 entries each year. At one time (mid 80s) National Capital Chapter got about 15 to 20 BMWs participating. We had two classes - stock and modified. It worked fine because cars ranged from 100 to 170 hp.

I think San Diego chapter still uses 6 BMW classes: Stock and Modified 4-cylinder, Stock and modified 6,8,12 cylinder, and stock and modified M-cars. I'm not sure what they allow as stock.

I suspect our autocross committee is willing to consider any recommendations you have.

By the way, I understand Boston Chapter is reverting to a previous practice of using the exact same course for the entire season. I think that takes away much of the challenge of autocrossing and certainly puts someone attending an event mid-season at a distinct disadvantage.

M-technik-3
03-16-2005, 10:37 PM
I have a 87 325is with a stock M50b25tu with the ZF transmissiona nd a 3.25lsd. Koni SA's and H&R sports (too soft) Plus sways and plus 1 factory EU baskets 15x7 et 24 wheels on Falken Azenis. My car was 3 points shy of CS so I got to run DS due to no R-compounds.

Reason why I said I would be out of contention was the Modified class was any with an engine swap, I now have further clarification that I would be in with the E36 325's as opposed to runing with Modified E36 M3's.

John V
03-17-2005, 07:05 AM
Looks like I might stick to Drivers schools or look for another auto-x series.
There are plenty of other autocross series around but none where your car would be any more competitive than here. In the SCCA events you'd be in street mod. That's a hell of a class to compete in and your car wouldn't have the firepower to do it, unfortunately.

Hope to see you at the events.

JV

Doby
03-17-2005, 07:43 AM
I have a 87 325is with a stock M50b25tu with the ZF transmissiona nd a 3.25lsd. Koni SA's and H&R sports (too soft) Plus sways and plus 1 factory EU baskets 15x7 et 24 wheels on Falken Azenis. My car was 3 points shy of CS so I got to run DS due to no R-compounds.

Reason why I said I would be out of contention was the Modified class was any with an engine swap, I now have further clarification that I would be in with the E36 325's as opposed to runing with Modified E36 M3's.

So you put an E36 325 motor into the car. Your car would be competitive if you ran r-comps. You'd still have to run against some of the regions better drivers in that class though, because that's where the SCCA DSP drivers are dumped.

There are no other series in the area that you'd be competitive in without r-comps and a supercharger, sorry. Every series follows SCCA rules, and your car is in Street Mod like Woody said.

Good luck with the season, and remember the BMW Autoxes are designed to be fun. So come out and I bet you'll have a good time once you meet everyone.

M-technik-3
03-17-2005, 11:59 AM
I have some R's but wasn't palnning on running them this year due to new budget constraints.


I had been contemplating swapping to a S50, and putting the M50 into my E30 Vert. But my wife won't bothering to getting better at driving a manual so when the slushbox goes bad :(.

Thanks for news.

Greg

Doby
03-17-2005, 12:04 PM
The S50 drops you into MSS as the car follows the engine.

When the rules were thought up 2 years ago, I wanted all cars with motor swaps to be classed in SS. My thoughts were if you swapped the motor in something like a Ti to a 2.8L, your power to weight ratio is on par with the M cars.

ChosenGSR
04-13-2005, 10:34 AM
is there a rookie class?

M-technik-3
04-13-2005, 11:48 AM
Darn flying schedule, I am missing out on fun, Damn. Gonna be flying this weekend thru next weekend.

SMOODY
04-18-2005, 04:23 PM
is there a rookie class?
No. The classes are all based on the type of car and the modifications that have been made.

ChosenGSR
04-18-2005, 07:57 PM
No. The classes are all based on the type of car and the modifications that have been made.

Yeah I understand, it was more of a sarcastic question on my part. I am nervous as I've never done autox in my life :)

bren
04-19-2005, 07:32 AM
Yeah I understand, it was more of a sarcastic question on my part. I am nervous as I've never done autox in my life :)
Don't worry. There is plenty of help available...you just have to ask.

The novice class is kinda wacky anyway....you end up running a bone stock 3 series against an uber-modded M3.

AlfaEric
04-19-2005, 08:21 AM
I'll see if I can incorporate a PAX system so you can compare your times against other classes.

---Eric