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View Full Version : (2009) NCC Autocross Event #6 - August 29 @ Sykesville, MD



Car54
07-20-2009, 02:20 PM
Join us as we remain at Maryland State Police Training Center in Sykesville, MD on August 29.

Event #6 Registration is open; click the LINK (http://www.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?view=details&id=111:autocross-event-6&option=com_eventlist&Itemid=26) to get started. NCC Autocross is open for all cars and drivers (BMW club members and not) and our events draw a wide variety of cars.

Not sure what class you're supposed to be in? Take a look at our classing structure (http://www.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=41&Itemid=166). Take a look at results so far this season (http://www.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?option=com_weblinks&view=category&id=55&Itemid=168) to see who will be in your class.

If you are new to our autocross program, please check out our FAQ section (http://www.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?option=com_quickfaq&view=category&cid=2&Itemid=154). If you still have questions either post your question on this forum or contact an autocross committee member (http://www.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?option=com_contact&view=category&catid=10&Itemid=27).

If you're not yet a BMWCCA member, what are you waiting for? Spend $40, join (http://bmwcca.org/index.php?pageid=club_join&ref_by=366493), and save $10 off your autocross entry fee + many other benefits.

We hope to see you there!

Craig
www.nccautocross.com

mduhovich
08-09-2009, 10:45 AM
I am in=)

alexmarksthespot
08-09-2009, 12:47 PM
I'll be there! And ready to help :-)

adam
08-09-2009, 01:50 PM
wow so far the next event will be made up of 100% females! =)

Reach
08-09-2009, 07:41 PM
See you guys there.

Zcruizer
08-09-2009, 09:05 PM
Females?!?! Oh heck, I'm in.

phenryiv1
08-09-2009, 09:24 PM
Will be there (most likely).

m3chaser
08-10-2009, 05:55 PM
Hopefully I will be there. Instead of driving my car I may be driving my brothers vette. We shall see.

Car54
08-10-2009, 07:25 PM
Does it have a blower too? ;)

darkfiber
08-10-2009, 11:14 PM
I'm in! But this time my gf won't be riding with me, she'll be driving her '07 Mini Cooper S ;)

m3chaser
08-11-2009, 12:51 PM
Does it have a blower too? ;)


Ahaha no it just has a full exhaust and a blackwing intake. He might be buying a C6 Z06 within a year or so though!

Jim Dunlap
08-14-2009, 03:37 PM
I goofed my registration...hit the first choice for AM session when in fact I meant to prefer the 2nd AM session (as fits my 63 number). If our registrar(s) can note this it will be much appreciated. Thanks.

mcoupemindy
08-14-2009, 05:08 PM
I goofed my registration...hit the first choice for AM session when in fact I meant to prefer the 2nd AM session (as fits my 63 number). If our registrar(s) can note this it will be much appreciated. Thanks.

I fixed it for you Jim.

Jim Dunlap
08-16-2009, 10:35 PM
Super...thanks much.

Jim Dunlap
08-17-2009, 08:31 PM
Almost 24 hours have passed with no Post after mine? Geeezzz. Well, to end this stand off I have a question. How early does a body have to arrive to be in time to get helpfully involved with set up (the shelter, cones, computers/timing, etc.)??

KatieT
08-17-2009, 09:22 PM
Almost 24 hours have passed with no Post after mine? Geeezzz. Well, to end this stand off I have a question. How early does a body have to arrive to be in time to get helpfully involved with set up (the shelter, cones, computers/timing, etc.)??I'm not sure when but Jonathan should post the week before sometime. Or he might just send an e-mail out so let him know you're interested in helping.

~Katie

phenryiv1
08-18-2009, 08:02 AM
These two being so close together (time-wise) and far from me (geographically), my wife is not pleased. SPMSP was just 30 minutes from me, and thus an event was either a morning or an afternoon, but not a most-of-the-day event.

I keep reminding her that Bowie is even more of a haul!

Actually, I do have a lot to do around the house, but I really want to get in at least one more event before the end of the season.

mcoupemindy
08-18-2009, 08:28 AM
These two being so close together (time-wise) and far from me (geographically), my wife is not pleased. SPMSP was just 30 minutes from me, and thus an event was either a morning or an afternoon, but not a most-of-the-day event.

I keep reminding her that Bowie is even more of a haul!

Actually, I do have a lot to do around the house, but I really want to get in at least one more event before the end of the season.

Bowie is worth the haul - especially for ChapterFest where $25 gets you autocross, food and a t-shirt!

KatieT
08-18-2009, 09:14 AM
These two being so close together (time-wise) and far from me (geographically), my wife is not pleased. SPMSP was just 30 minutes from me, and thus an event was either a morning or an afternoon, but not a most-of-the-day event.So you have two options. You can either bring her with you as there's many more people of the female gender coming out now. Or you can let her go shopping or do something that she likes and you want to get out of. Either way you get to come. :biggrin:

~Katie

phenryiv1
08-18-2009, 09:22 AM
So you have two options. You can either bring her with you as there's many more people of the female gender coming out now. Or you can let her go shopping or do something that she likes and you want to get out of. Either way you get to come. :biggrin:

~Katie
I keep begging her to come out just once. She is being a pooh about it.

I MIGHT be able to get her to SP, if we go back there next year.

Right now, she is about 5 months pregnant, and we have a 2 year-old. While my daughter loved watching cars up at SP when we went up there to grab some tires a few months back, my wife was less than enthused at the idea of being pregnant and out in the heat while I drive around in circles. :biggrin:

Next time, I think that a stop off at the Coach store in Hagerstown may be needed to get back in her good graces. Then we both win!

BradMW
08-20-2009, 12:55 PM
I keep begging her to come out just once. She is being a pooh about it.

I MIGHT be able to get her to SP, if we go back there next year.

Right now, she is about 5 months pregnant, and we have a 2 year-old. While my daughter loved watching cars up at SP when we went up there to grab some tires a few months back, my wife was less than enthused at the idea of being pregnant and out in the heat while I drive around in circles. :biggrin:

Next time, I think that a stop off at the Coach store in Hagerstown may be needed to get back in her good graces. Then we both win!

They need a Coach store outside all autocross venues. I guess the Leesburg outlets are somewhat close to Summit Point.

mduhovich
08-20-2009, 01:02 PM
They need a Coach store outside all autocross venues. I guess the Leesburg outlets are somewhat close to Summit Point.haha, guys, you will not believe me, but I already got two coach bags
and my new baby-dog got a collar and a leash from coach after a couple of autocross events - all thanks to autocross.. it was so close to stop by at the hagerstown outlet after the events=))

Car54
08-20-2009, 01:02 PM
Autocross/Tupperware
Autocross/Purse Show
Autocross/Wine Tasting
Autocross/Make up show
Autocross/Cookie Exchange

Reach
08-20-2009, 01:16 PM
haha, guys, you will not believe me, but I already got two coach bags
and my new baby-dog got a collar and a leash from coach after a couple of autocross events - all thanks to autocross.. it was so close to stop by at the hagerstown outlet after the events=))


My new suspension and wheels cost 1 purse and 2 trenchcoats from the very same... and its not even fall / winter yet.

I forsee a petition on behalf of autocrossing husbands. Lets run them out of town.

KatieT
08-20-2009, 01:21 PM
My new suspension and wheels cost 1 purse and 2 trenchcoats from the very same... and its not even fall / winter yet.So you're telling me that I let Jonathan off easy when everything this season has only cost him one shopping trip to the mall with my sister (which probably cost us about the same as one wheel for his car)? Hmm...may have to negotiate better terms for me next time...:wink:

~Katie

mcoupemindy
08-22-2009, 02:59 PM
Current registration list attached!

mduhovich
08-22-2009, 07:40 PM
Jonathan,

Would you, please, switch Alex Duhovich from the second AM session to the first one? It looks like we will have our son with us, so we will not be able to drive at the same session.

mcoupemindy
08-22-2009, 08:49 PM
Jonathan,

Would you, please, switch Alex Duhovich from the second AM session to the first one? It looks like we will have our son with us, so we will not be able to drive at the same session.

Done.

MazdaSC
08-23-2009, 08:05 AM
Johnathan,

I will be driving a 2004 Z4 not a Z3 in T2 on Saturday. Thanks in advance.

James D.

mcoupemindy
08-23-2009, 08:19 AM
Johnathan,

I will be driving a 2004 Z4 not a Z3 in T2 on Saturday. Thanks in advance.

James D.

Fixed. See you Sat!

ea-sport
08-24-2009, 10:37 AM
Jonathan,

I might have missed it but I didn't see our number. Will we get it during registration? I missed event #5 but for event #4 we did get our number in advance. Thanks.

Emir

mcoupemindy
08-24-2009, 10:46 AM
Jonathan,

I might have missed it but I didn't see our number. Will we get it during registration? I missed event #5 but for event #4 we did get our number in advance. Thanks.

Emir

I haven't assigned them yet ...

Check later in the week please.

Thanks!

jbrannon7
08-24-2009, 01:13 PM
Jonathan, why did you move from M2 to UN?

Joe

mcoupemindy
08-24-2009, 01:20 PM
Jonathan, why did you move from M2 to UN?

Joe

I'm not sure what car I'll be running at the event. It seems as if my car will be down for the count.

jbrannon7
08-24-2009, 01:27 PM
I'm not sure what car I'll be running at the event. It seems as if my car will be down for the count.


That doesn't sound good.

mscire2
08-24-2009, 03:57 PM
i cant wait to autox with some stretch and poke...............

ea-sport
08-24-2009, 04:40 PM
I haven't assigned them yet ...

Check later in the week please.

Thanks!

Awesome..

Car54
08-25-2009, 04:10 PM
I'm not sure what car I'll be running at the event. It seems as if my car will be down for the count.

Huh? Is it a secret?

mcoupemindy
08-25-2009, 10:02 PM
Huh? Is it a secret?

It's not road worthy at the moment, that's for damn sure ...

m3chaser
08-26-2009, 11:55 AM
I am planning on coming as of this point, but will only be able to do the morning session. If that changes I will let ya know 1st thing Jonathan.

BradMW
08-26-2009, 07:51 PM
I'm signing the girl up again. Apologies if she chickens out again. Atleast this way I theoretically get out of having to buy another purse.

mcoupemindy
08-27-2009, 06:28 AM
Current registration list attached (w/ numbers too).

A few important notes:



The AM session is full. There will be no AM walk-ups permitted.
We are trying a different car numbering system for this event as a trial. First session AM will be 1xx, second session AM will be 2xx, first session PM will be 3xx, fourth session PM will be 4xx.
Please stay tuned to this thread as we need many volunteers to help with setup / etc. I'll post a specific list of the positions that I need filled later today.

Thanks.

mcoupemindy
08-27-2009, 06:41 AM
We need the following volunteers to make Saturday run smoothly:

4 Waiver Tent Workers (2 for the AM / 2 for the PM)
2 Grid Workers (Both PM)

I will post Friday morning with arrival times for morning setup. Thanks!

Scany
08-27-2009, 08:22 AM
We need the following volunteers to make Saturday run smoothly:

4 Waiver Tent Workers (2 for the AM / 2 for the PM)
2 Grid Workers (Both PM)

I will post Friday morning with arrival times for morning setup. Thanks!

Me and Lindsey will be there for the waiver tent in the morning at least.

satyrdog
08-27-2009, 12:58 PM
I'm not sure if this the best place to post this, so let me know if I should move this elsewhere. I did search these questions a bit, so if I'm duplicating just point me to the right post.

Thanks in advance!

Question one: Why are there so few 335is at these autocross events?
Question two: Event #5 was my first autocross, what gear do most people take their run in? Mostly second? Mostly first? Do people downshift into first? (Is this a big no no? What if you throttle match?)
Should I completely disable traction control?

Question three: Does the time of day for the runs make any difference? Why do people generally like the first AM session the most? Just because it leaves the rest of the day open, or temperature, something else?

Question four: How does one figure out how close to a cone you can go without hitting it? Just practice? Are there any exercises I could do at home to improve my spatial perception?

Question five: What's a good beginner time in a 335i? I had 49. something last time.

mcoupemindy
08-27-2009, 01:04 PM
I'm not sure if this the best place to post this, so let me know if I should move this elsewhere. I did search these questions a bit, so if I'm duplicating just point me to the right post.

Thanks in advance!

Question one: Why are there so few 335is at these autocross events?
Question two: Event #5 was my first autocross, what gear do most people take their run in? Mostly second? Mostly first? Do people downshift into first? (Is this a big no no? What if you throttle match?)
Should I completely disable traction control?

Question three: Does the time of day for the runs make any difference? Why do people generally like the first AM session the most? Just because it leaves the rest of the day open, or temperature, something else?

Question four: How does one figure out how close to a cone you can go without hitting it? Just practice? Are there any exercises I could do at home to improve my spatial perception?

1.) Consider the average 335 driver - it's a grocery getter (very fast no less). The average consumer has no intention of participating in motorsports. This is just my thought.

2.) Launch in first, shift to second, stay in second.

3.) Time of day has nothing to do with it. It's just preference.

4.) If you're not hitting cones, you'll never find where you need to be. I don't suggest trying to hit every cone, however, don't be afraid to hit them.

BradMW
08-27-2009, 02:28 PM
Question four: How does one figure out how close to a cone you can go without hitting it? Just practice? Are there any exercises I could do at home to improve my spatial perception?

A good rule of thumb is to find the most light-pole-laden parking lot available and have at it.

roxstuff
08-27-2009, 03:02 PM
We need the following volunteers to make Saturday run smoothly:

4 Waiver Tent Workers (2 for the AM / 2 for the PM)
2 Grid Workers (Both PM)

I will post Friday morning with arrival times for morning setup. Thanks!
I am running in the 4th session and am available to work grid in the 3rd session.

pseto
08-27-2009, 04:12 PM
Question one: Why are there so few 335is at these autocross events?
Question two: Event #5 was my first autocross, what gear do most people take their run in? Mostly second? Mostly first? Do people downshift into first? (Is this a big no no? What if you throttle match?)
Should I completely disable traction control?

Question three: Does the time of day for the runs make any difference? Why do people generally like the first AM session the most? Just because it leaves the rest of the day open, or temperature, something else?

Question four: How does one figure out how close to a cone you can go without hitting it? Just practice? Are there any exercises I could do at home to improve my spatial perception?

Question five: What's a good beginner time in a 335i? I had 49. something last time.

I think Jonathan answered pretty well, but I'll add a few things since I have an e92 and know many others who have the same car. IMO many of them are first time BMW owners and are too afraid to autox/track since its their only car. The reason most tell me is they rather wait till AFTER the warranty is over. Obviously, this is ridiculous since I'd rather have something fail while under warranty so I don't have to pay for it. Its also a great way to get to understand how to handle your car, especially one with a ton of HP and torque.

As far as traction control, I turn mine OFF since you won't be able to accelerate out of a turn if you lose some traction. I never get out of 2nd gear either since the car has enough hp and torque to get you around the course without further downshifting/upshifting.

woodym3
08-27-2009, 05:20 PM
Question one: Why are there so few 335is at these autocross events?

Question three: Does the time of day for the runs make any difference? Why do people generally like the first AM session the most? Just because it leaves the rest of the day open, or temperature, something else?

Question four: How does one figure out how close to a cone you can go without hitting it? Just practice? Are there any exercises I could do at home to improve my spatial perception?

Question five: What's a good beginner time in a 335i? I had 49. something last time.

1. In addition to Jonathan's answer, on paper the 335i is not a good autocross car due to its weight and lack of a limited slip differential. Good driving can overcome a lot though.

3. Traditionally the third (of four) heats fills up first with most organizations. Probably the foremost reason is by then the pavement on the normal line has been swept clean of any loose gravel. I've always considered the greater chance of a thunderstorm late in the afternoon, but that has worked against me many times, particularily this season.

4. Find a suitable empty parking lot. If you don't have access to pylons, get some large cups and add a little sand to keep them from blowing away. PRACTICE. You don't have to go so fast you attract unwanted attention. It's good training for newly licensed drivers too.

Biggins
08-27-2009, 06:36 PM
1. As people have mentioned, it's a new car which eliminates a huge population of people who just won't do anything other than hard park or daily drive their car. It is extremely heavy (like all modern BMWs) and not competitive without a healthy chunk of change (like all modern BMWs) . It's perfectly fine to learn and to play with it either way.

2. For a 335, shift into second and drive.

3. Early afternoon or late morning session is what I prefer, but it depends on my schedule. I like to watch the morning session and some rubber is usually laid down by afternoon. Many will tell you it makes no difference.

4. Do as many autocross events and schools as possible.

5. No way to gauge. Pick a driver who finished ahead of you (any car) and compare their times with yours over the next few events. If you close the gap over the next few events, you know you're progressing.

Jim Dunlap
08-27-2009, 09:40 PM
Allow me to opine, expert as I am since I had an 07 335i for a year, autocrossed it several times and did a couple of driver schools. Nicest car I've ever owned. That said, for flinging around on the parking lot or track...too big; too heavy. I preferred the family 2000 E46 and to back that preference up, bought an 05 ZCP M3. I'm happy.

But as for the 335i: not to worry if it is your only car. BMWs are amazingly capable and you should feel free to drive and enjoy it. You WILL enjoy autocrossing this car. This includes not just autocross, but other events as well. Don't worry about who is getting FTD. Just do the best that YOU can do. As for cones: raise your seat. Honestly, I mean it. Raising your seat so you are higher and can see the car corners...higher than you would feel comfy on the road...will help you to see the corners of your car, and thereafter cut the angles on the cones and hit them less, if at all.

Keep the questions coming. May I observe that at many of our autocrosses there are obviously many newbies but we don't sufficiently encourage to ask questions. Jonathan or Woody, can we get some vests or Tshirts or hats that identify a cadre of "wise persons" amenable to being quizzed? Every autocross, I note the number of "1st time" hands being raised. Ideally we would record their names, email addresses, or whatever...and reach out to them personally. Idea being to increase the likelihood of repeat appearances. Just a thought....

I'm willing to help.

Scany
08-28-2009, 09:15 AM
Another way to see how close you really get to the cones/apex/curb/squirrel etc. is to mount a camera on the side of the car viewing the front tire. I got to borrow George's suction mount one time and the video was quite interesting to watch :)

satyrdog
08-28-2009, 09:35 AM
Thanks for all the replies!
Looking forward to tomorrow. Am bringing two of my friends for their first times too!

slick230
08-28-2009, 09:53 AM
Are there still spots left? If so, should I do this with a bent rear lower control arm?

mcoupemindy
08-28-2009, 10:08 AM
Are there still spots left? If so, should I do this with a bent rear lower control arm?

Plenty of spots left. Please register online.

Bob
08-28-2009, 10:20 AM
1. As people have mentioned, it's a new car which eliminates a huge population of people who just won't do anything other than hard park or daily drive their car. It is extremely heavy (like all modern BMWs) and not competitive without a healthy chunk of change (like all modern BMWs) . It's perfectly fine to learn and to play with it either way.

2. For a 335, shift into second and drive.

3. Early afternoon or late morning session is what I prefer, but it depends on my schedule. I like to watch the morning session and some rubber is usually laid down by afternoon. Many will tell you it makes no difference.

4. Do as many autocross events and schools as possible.

5. No way to gauge. Pick a driver who finished ahead of you (any car) and compare their times with yours over the next few events. If you close the gap over the next few events, you know you're progressing.
I need clarification, What exactly is a "hard park", a sideways slide into a barely large enough spot comes to mind. Bob

mcoupemindy
08-28-2009, 10:23 AM
I need clarification, What exactly is a "hard park", a sideways slide into a barely large enough spot comes to mind. Bob

Here's a decent definition:

Coined by at least by the Honda-Tech mob describing cars that have all the "race"/track mods known to man and beast only to be parked up or never raced.


Benen tow hooks, lowered some much you scrape EVERYTHING, therefore things that are race used but all the car does is "hard parking"

slick230
08-28-2009, 11:32 AM
Plenty of spots left. Please register online.


I tried and I get the following error...

ERROR - Failed Spammer Checks - Err#101 !!

:icon_ange

I'm not a spammer! I am trying to register from a computer lab in College Park.

slick230
08-28-2009, 12:29 PM
Never mind, I was able to register.

ea-sport
08-28-2009, 04:05 PM
Jonathan,

What time should we get there for the morning session? Thanks.

mcoupemindy
08-28-2009, 08:44 PM
If you would like to help set-up tomorrow morning, please arrive at 7:45 am.

Thanks!

mcoupemindy
08-29-2009, 12:17 AM
Here's the final registration list.

noelleslie
08-29-2009, 04:05 PM
If anyone found a tire sprayer, I left mine there.

Anyway.. the footage:

My Run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiqzXY1AzoE


James borrowing car for a few runs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cng-I7HSTTc

woodym3
08-29-2009, 04:53 PM
Thanks for posting Noel. Was that you final run?

I couldn't believe more people in the AM heats didn't try going to the right of the first cone in the first optional slalom. I had to leave before the afternoon heats started, but I'll be interested in knowing if anyone else tried what I think was the fastest way. When I helped Sam Bell set up the course I tried to make that slalom as questionable as possible as to whether it was better to give up speed at the beginning or the end.
Woody

Biggins
08-29-2009, 05:01 PM
I couldn't believe more people in the AM heats didn't try going to the right of the first cone in the first optional slalom. I had to leave before the afternoon heats started, but I'll be interested in knowing if anyone else tried what I think was the fastest way. When I helped Sam Bell set up the course I tried to make that slalom as questionable as possible as to whether it was better to give up speed at the beginning or the end.
Woody
I did that on all four runs and definitely thought it was the much faster way through it for my car. There were very few in the afternoon who tried it that way too.

Sam plopped his camera on my car for one run, so I don't know if he'll be able to post it.

BradMW
08-29-2009, 05:14 PM
Thanks for posting Noel. Was that you final run?

I couldn't believe more people in the AM heats didn't try going to the right of the first cone in the first optional slalom. I had to leave before the afternoon heats started, but I'll be interested in knowing if anyone else tried what I think was the fastest way. When I helped Sam Bell set up the course I tried to make that slalom as questionable as possible as to whether it was better to give up speed at the beginning or the end.
Woody

I figured I had so little speed left over after the box that it didn't make too much difference which way I went. I felt a little off balance through that slalom looking back, so maybe I should have tried the right.

Anyway, best course I have ever driven. Nice job sam, woody, and anyone else responsible

FredK
08-29-2009, 05:31 PM
I'd always rather give up speed going into a slow section than give it up at the beggining of a fast section. I love having choices though, trickly little course. Great weather. Thanks all.
FredK

mcoupemindy
08-29-2009, 06:49 PM
Results are posted.

http://www.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?option=com_weblinks&view=category&id=55&Itemid=168

And again, don't expect this awesome service every time! :)

Noel,

I put your tire sprayer in the trailer. It will be waiting for you.

agreatham
08-29-2009, 08:02 PM
For the previous event as Sykesville, there were 93 participants (372 runs) and 37 runs that went off-course or 9.9%. For today's event, there were 79 participants (316 runs) and 76 runs that went off-course or 24%. I used a simple word count from the results pages to get these numbers, so if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

I can understand that those of you who have been doing this for years might need the challenge, but for those of us who are just starting out, course layouts like this can be extremely frustrating.

I saw a lot of hands raised in the PM group when Bogdan asked who the first-timers were and I can't help but wonder how may of them will want to do this again.

SamB325es
08-29-2009, 08:18 PM
Sorry if you found todays course too tight and slow. Bowie will probably be more beginner friendly, So I hope that nobody was so frustrated that they will never try it again.
I don't mind taking first timers for a ride.

I will post my vids later...
A good one of Chris sliding thru the back corner.

noelleslie
08-29-2009, 08:27 PM
My first run was to the right of the first cone on the optional slalom. That was 0.1 seconds and +1 cone slower than my last run, so I don't know which way was faster. I really just hated the slalom - too tight, albeit do able.

I think the course was good for getting newer drivers to look well ahead, and break the "straight ahead stare," but agree that it was certainly not a good course for beginners since the navigation demand was fairly high.

I rode along with many people, and the design seemed frequently counter-productive: they were making great increases in the driving aspects, only to be frustrated with a DNF or a near off course leading to big time penalty.

There were areas where instantaneous navigation mistakes could not be pointed out in time.

To people who had trouble with the course: I just offer to you the fact that learning happens in weird plateaus and phases. You may have been frustrated, but learning DID occur. It is usually after my worst days that I have events where I am very impressed with myself... then more frustration to seemingly no end... then all the work pays off and the realization comes that learning was occurring the whole time.

I wonder if it would have been better or worse in the wet...

agreatham
08-29-2009, 09:06 PM
To people who had trouble with the course: I just offer to you the fact that learning happens in weird plateaus and phases. You may have been frustrated, but learning DID occur. It is usually after my worst days that I have events where I am very impressed with myself... then more frustration to seemingly no end... then all the work pays off and the realization comes that learning was occurring the whole time.


Thanks, Noel, for putting this in the right perspective. Maybe I'm just too upset at myself right now to see things clearly. I think you're exactly right about the plateaus. I had set two goals for myself for this season: stay on course and not hit cones. I thought I had those two things down until today and I was starting to work on looking ahead and figuring out the right line. It's clear that I still need to work on reading the cones and memorizing the layout.

At least I have the Level 2 SCCA Autocross school tomorrow to look forward to.

Gimp
08-29-2009, 09:32 PM
It pains me to do this, but...

1 142 Przyborski, Paul 1996 BMW 318ti Black 49.152+1 54.095 54.629+OFF 54.410 51.152

That must be an error. There's no way I was that fast on my first run. My best time should be the 54.095, putting me in second for the class. Nice times out there Chris, and you'll get me next time Sam.

forrealb50
08-29-2009, 10:10 PM
I thought the course was a lot of fun. The best parts were the offset gates. It was a rush keeping it floored through both of them. The worst part was getting a flat on my way home... only time I've been happy with the run flats.

forrealb50
08-29-2009, 10:13 PM
Also... I would love to see some pictures from the last few events? Is there some link that I don't know about?

adam
08-29-2009, 10:15 PM
For the previous event as Sykesville, there were 93 participants (372 runs) and 37 runs that went off-course or 9.9%. For today's event, there were 79 participants (316 runs) and 76 runs that went off-course or 24%. I used a simple word count from the results pages to get these numbers, so if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

I can understand that those of you who have been doing this for years might need the challenge, but for those of us who are just starting out, course layouts like this can be extremely frustrating.

I saw a lot of hands raised in the PM group when Bogdan asked who the first-timers were and I can't help but wonder how may of them will want to do this again.

What's up Mike - I had to respond to this one.

We recognize that there are many newcomers and want them to come back. One of our main goals is to get people to have fun and learn what their cars can really do. I can understand where you are coming from and obviously we try to design a course that can be driven by both beginners and experts alike.

Now realistically, it is impossible to please everyone as we all have different ideas and feelings about how something should be. My OPINION, and by no means does anyone have to agree with me, is that courses that challenge you make you a better driver. Of course they are more frustrating and I understand that people don't want to be frustrated on the weekend during a 'fun' activity... yet we offer instructors and many opportunities for people to get help. Also, slowing down so you can plan out where you want to drive will yield extra time to get from start to finish without hitting cones and staying on course. As an example, you sought out help and I drove with you, twice maybe? I can't remember as I drove with geez, like 15 people or something today, which happened because more drivers were getting 'lost' than usual. The people I saw that went off course typically were those that drove too fast and missed a gate (oops, slow down next time =] ) and had no idea where to go (oops, grab an instructor and slow down)... and I don't think that is a result of the course difficulty. To me, off courses come more from not being able to navigate from point A to B whereas course difficulty is related more to the times you put down... albeit these 2 things are correlated to some degree.

To put this in perspective, my very first autocross was at Rosecroft Raceway and I drove my 2002 VW GTi. I was off course my first 3 runs!! Yup, 3 runs!! I finally turned in a time on my 4th but it was horrifically slow. I came out of the event with a real appreciation for what it takes to be able to drive and wanted MORE. I couldn't wait to get out to the next event to learn, get better, and get faster. I began walking the course several times to make sure I knew where to go and my first run was always about 5 seconds slower than all my others so I could really 'see' the course and plan where to be. So please don't be frustrated when you are just starting out, it's part of the learning process and as Noel said, I bet you learned quite a lot today! I hope I helped in that process...

Ok that's long sorry... hope everyone had a good time as we avoided rain somehow today!!

-- Adam

Sammyzuko
08-29-2009, 10:47 PM
I thought the course was a lot of fun. The best parts were the offset gates. It was a rush keeping it floored through both of them.
I agree. I really enjoyed the offset gates. While walking this course I didn't think it was going to be much fun to drive.....I was wrong. Props to the designers and everyone involved with running the event.

jbrannon7
08-30-2009, 06:51 AM
Thanks for posting Noel. Was that you final run?

I couldn't believe more people in the AM heats didn't try going to the right of the first cone in the first optional slalom. I had to leave before the afternoon heats started, but I'll be interested in knowing if anyone else tried what I think was the fastest way. When I helped Sam Bell set up the course I tried to make that slalom as questionable as possible as to whether it was better to give up speed at the beginning or the end.
Woody

Woody, after thinking about it some, I think your way was faster because it shortened the run by 60 feet or so. Wish I had tried it.

Joe

jbrannon7
08-30-2009, 06:59 AM
For the previous event as Sykesville, there were 93 participants (372 runs) and 37 runs that went off-course or 9.9%. For today's event, there were 79 participants (316 runs) and 76 runs that went off-course or 24%. I used a simple word count from the results pages to get these numbers, so if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

I can understand that those of you who have been doing this for years might need the challenge, but for those of us who are just starting out, course layouts like this can be extremely frustrating.

I saw a lot of hands raised in the PM group when Bogdan asked who the first-timers were and I can't help but wonder how may of them will want to do this again.


Last year was my first year doing this and I got lost at most events.

Here are some tips. When walking the course don't talk to anyone, concentrate on what you are going to see when you are driving. LOOK AHEAD in the walk the same way you will want to look ahead when driving. As you walk the course try and run it in your head from the start to where you are, when you get to the end you should know the course. Walk it as many times as you can.

Joe

Bob
08-30-2009, 07:49 AM
Woody, after thinking about it some, I think your way was faster because it shortened the run by 60 feet or so. Wish I had tried it.

Joe

I always thought the mantra was slow in, fast out? (left of the 1st cone), did Woody go right on all runs?

mcoupemindy
08-30-2009, 08:58 AM
I wonder if it would have been better or worse in the wet...

I was hoping for rain ... oh well ... had fun on the stock sized street tires anyhow.

mcoupemindy
08-30-2009, 09:00 AM
It pains me to do this, but...

1 142 Przyborski, Paul 1996 BMW 318ti Black 49.152+1 54.095 54.629+OFF 54.410 51.152

That must be an error. There's no way I was that fast on my first run. My best time should be the 54.095, putting me in second for the class. Nice times out there Chris, and you'll get me next time Sam.

Well, you get a +1 for honesty. Per your request, I'll mark that run off course.

mcoupemindy
08-30-2009, 09:05 AM
Woody, after thinking about it some, I think your way was faster because it shortened the run by 60 feet or so. Wish I had tried it.

Joe

I ran it both ways - and I'm not sure about which one was faster. But, as always, I took a fun run in the afternoon and knocked almost 2 seconds off my official timed runs (and clean).

Gimp
08-30-2009, 09:07 AM
Well, you get a +1 for honesty. Per your request, I'll mark that run off course.

Thanks!

mduhovich
08-30-2009, 09:13 AM
Thank you guys very much for this event! Thanks to all instructors who rode with me and gave me priceless advices =)) I had an opportunity to ride with Chris and that was something amazing! Unfortunately I missed the opportunity to ride with Woody, so I am still blaming myself for that=(( Thanks to Joe who got some videos of my runs. I noticed a lot of little details that I can work on and I did not even know before that I had problems in these areas. Anyway, as usual - great event. I also have to notice that it is much more organized and smoother than it used to be half a year ago at Summit Point.

As a beginner I have to say that this course was about as difficult as courses at 4 other events I attended. I went off course, then, I had doubts about where to go next two runs and, finally, the fourth run - I figured it out. However, I came late and only had a chance to walk through the course 1.5 times. So, I guess I paid for it later.

I was wondering if it is possible to have more cones, or even chalked course. If it is ok, I will be willing to volunteer and after the main setup is done, I can add the leading line or whatever, that will (I hope) eliminate some off course cases? At the end of the day, autocross is about driving and handling your car, not only about remembering the course.

woodym3
08-30-2009, 09:40 AM
I always thought the mantra was slow in, fast out? (left of the 1st cone), did Woody go right on all runs?
Actually I'm not sure which was best, and think it might have been car dependent. My first run I went right thinking the faster approach and shorter distance would more than make up for the much slower exit / entry into the 180. My second run I went left of the first slalom cone, but the run was already ruined by understeering into the outside of Biggin's "triangle". Still not knowing which way was better, I went left on my third run too.
Hitting a cone on the finish slalom didn't affect my time and I was over 1/2 second slower. So I figured the path to the right of the first slalom cone was the best and my final run proved to be fastest.

John Nicolaysen (red Miata) tried each way twice and reported he was about 1 second slower when going to the right. Of all the cars in the second heat, I thought his car looked fastest through that slalom no matter which way he went.

woodym3
08-30-2009, 10:21 AM
[/COLOR]
I agree with Maria that course memorization should not be the prime factor in autocross performance. Unfortunately it has to be an important element though. Yes, if 24% of all runs were off course, then the course was too confusing. Sam started with a course design that was very simple. But those of us helping him were afraid it would result in times of less than 30 seconds. So more and more features got added and you saw the result.

It is my opinion that the current popular use of walls, "Chicago Boxes", pointer cones, etc make for a very visually confusing course (the proverbial "sea of cones"). This trend has come from the SCCA national course designs used for events where everyone is an experienced autocrosser. In the old days of the Metropolitan Washington Council of Sports Car Clubs series, each gate had to be at least 40 feet past the previous one. A gate consistented of one cone on each side of the line. "Pointer" cones were never used except at the first cone of a non-optional slalom. One old timer that wrote for a local sports car weekly (The Stopwatcher) used to brag about his course that used 8 cones (besides start and finish). I guess I'm saying that I think more cones would add to the problem, not solve it.

Some organizations do use a baseball line marker (a small wheeled contraption) that dumps a line of lime (flour is more environmental friendly these days) around one side of the course. Is that helpful to beginners? I've always contended that your eyes are not looking far enough ahead if you are trying to follow this chaulked line. Other opinions?

slick230
08-30-2009, 10:27 AM
I have a few videos from the Autocross (#6). You can see what I have here...

http://www.youtube.com/user/slick230

Enjoy.

ronh21
08-30-2009, 11:02 AM
Here are some tips. When walking the course don't talk to anyone, concentrate on what you are going to see when you are driving. LOOK AHEAD in the walk the same way you will want to look ahead when driving. As you walk the course try and run it in your head from the start to where you are, when you get to the end you should know the course. Walk it as many times as you can.

I started autocross at the spring school. Yesterday was my 10th event of the year and I'm still pretty paranoid about getting lost at every event I do, even though I never have. What I do, and would recommend if you're having problems, is

1. Sign up for AM second group, or PM and get there early, then really pay attention to where people are having problems while you're working. For me, this is at least as important as the course walk.

2. As Joe says, walk the course alone. I don't even want to hear the chatter from groups walking around me. I'll wait until they're out of range. I always walk at least twice. If you're not sure which way the course goes, ask someone but then let them finish their walk (follow them :wink:). Also, the longer you take to get registered and teched, the less time you'll have to walk. Get in line early.

For me, today's course broke down into three easy-ish to remember sections. Around the edge ending with a u-turn towards the middle, the hard left, then a big "S" starting and ending with slaloms. That would keep me heading the right direction. Of course there were other details, but that was it in a nutshell. If I could've just gotten a clean run...

I was able to ride with a few people today to help them out, which was great. I also took one for a ride with me. I'm happy to do that any time somebody wants to jump in. My car's not as cool as Bogdans or Jonathans, but you may still learn something. I don't want to see people getting frustrated and quitting.

Ron

ronh21
08-30-2009, 11:11 AM
...Some organizations do use a baseball line marker (a small wheeled contraption) that dumps a line of lime (flour is more environmental friendly these days) around one side of the course. Is that helpful to beginners? I've always contended that your eyes are not looking far enough ahead if you are trying to follow this chaulked line. Other opinions?

A Porsche event I did (my 2nd ever) had these lines on both sides connecting each gate. They do seem pretty comforting. They made the course walk easier and I went into it a little more confident. After a run or two they didn't need to be there at all. I think they could actually be a little distracting for more experienced drivers. Maybe we could experiment with it.

woodym3
08-30-2009, 11:14 AM
For me, today's course broke down into three easy-ish to remember sections. Around the edge ending with a u-turn towards the middle, the hard left, then a big "S" starting and ending with slaloms. That would keep me heading the right direction. Of course there were other details, but that was it in a nutshell. Ron

I think this is a great technique that I've used for years. Try to put a general description of the course into a few short sentences.

Zcruizer
08-30-2009, 11:56 AM
I'm one for simplicity, hundreds of cones isn't necessary to guide drivers through a course. Any type of auto race has a practice time for the specific course (or should). Ours happens to be walking the course. I saw Sam Bell, and others, out there answering any course questions. For me,this course was tight with a couple turns requiring hard steering from one direction to another. Part of that was due to my inability to stay off the gas. Looking at the times, the normal spread between the best and worst is consistent with other events. There aren't any complaints from me about the course, well maybe one. My opinion is there were too many hands in the development of the course and it lost, or never had, a flowing nature. But again, it was fine with me.

Professional Amateur :cool:
James

mcoupemindy
08-30-2009, 01:07 PM
For what it's worth, I thought yesterday's course was fantastic. Sure, it might not have flowed exactly perfect, however it presented some very unique challenges in which I REALLY enjoyed. It's always fun to have a course that sweeps gently, etc. but the technical sections are what frustrate me to become a better driver.

There's a fine line between a novice course (easy for beginners; boring for old timers) and an expert course (hard for beginners; a challenge for the more experienced). I think that yesterday's course pushed closer to the "expert" course - and I'm excited to see that only one participant ended the day with a DNF.

Zcruizer
08-30-2009, 01:16 PM
Jonathan, I especially like the fact you were only 1.1 seconds better than me this time. So keep this type of course and the setup your car had, and I may have a chance to have a better time than you. haaa

PA
James

darkfiber
08-30-2009, 02:48 PM
My 3rd ever autocross and I came in 1st in my class! :) I'm pretty excited about that. I wonder if I would have done any better if I had put air in my tires. I think they're filled with 29-30psi at the moment.

For those that had problems, I use this simple rule; Walk the course at least twice noting specific cones you want to look at and apexes you need to hit. Then imagine driving through the entire course. If you can't picture the entire course in your head then you need to walk it again. I walked the course 3 times and drove through it a few times in my head while waiting on the grid. I never went off or hit a cone. I thought the course was fun and I liked that it was longer and challenging.

-John

adam
08-30-2009, 06:44 PM
Jonathan, I especially like the fact you were only 1.1 seconds better than me this time. So keep this type of course and the setup your car had, and I may have a chance to have a better time than you. haaa

PA
James

He wasn't on race tires....


My 3rd ever autocross and I came in 1st in my class! :) I'm pretty excited about that. I wonder if I would have done any better if I had put air in my tires. I think they're filled with 29-30psi at the moment.

For those that had problems, I use this simple rule; Walk the course at least twice noting specific cones you want to look at and apexes you need to hit. Then imagine driving through the entire course. If you can't picture the entire course in your head then you need to walk it again. I walked the course 3 times and drove through it a few times in my head while waiting on the grid. I never went off or hit a cone. I thought the course was fun and I liked that it was longer and challenging.

-John

Yea those pressures are probably too low. They vary from car to car, type of tire and on driving style, but people typically run 35+ psi. You can use pressures, as you probably know, to adjust how the car handles (favors understeer or oversteer). Great job and glad you had a good time!

-- Adam

Braineack
08-30-2009, 08:45 PM
Also... I would love to see some pictures from the last few events? Is there some link that I don't know about?

Steve, I got a few of you from this event:

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0063.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0064.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0065.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0150.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0151.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0152.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0153.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0154.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0155.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0156.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0157.JPG

KatieT
08-30-2009, 09:06 PM
Actually, while the percentage of off course runs there were there were three other events that had more people with a final DNF. Event #2 and #3 each had two people with a DNF and Event #4 had three people. This one only had one person. :icon_shru

On another note we're trying to download pics now so hopefully they'll be up by Wednesday-ish.

~Katie

SamB325es
08-30-2009, 09:10 PM
Biggins was on fire!
The huge slide thru the off-set gates and the corner box is just great stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMVOhqqfYt0

JimmeyZcruizer muggin' for the camera.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMsS-Os9mPo

Good times...

Zcruizer
08-30-2009, 10:08 PM
Holy crap Sam, I felt ok with my driving until I saw this video. I think I should get one of those cameras for research and development. I couldn't keep up with all the mistakes I made. Thanks for the vid.
BTW, Braxton Hicks has left the building, on to the real thing now !!! :eek:

KatieT
08-31-2009, 05:45 AM
Also... I would love to see some pictures from the last few events? Is there some link that I don't know about?The past event isn't up yet but I do have the ones before that loaded here (http://katiethayer.smugmug.com/Cars/Autocross). The ones from Saturday might be up by Wednesday - it depends on how slow the computer is. I took just under 1500 this time around so we'll see.

~Katie

BradMW
08-31-2009, 08:36 AM
Well, you get a +1 for honesty. Per your request, I'll mark that run off course.

That doesn't seem fair. The guy comes forth with the truth and you slap a +1 on him. Let him keep his clean run.

Gimp
08-31-2009, 08:53 AM
that doesn't seem fair. The guy comes forth with the truth and you slap a +1 on him. Let him keep his clean run.

lol!

woodym3
08-31-2009, 08:59 AM
, but for those of us who are just starting out, course layouts like this can be extremely frustrating.



One of the things we have gotten away from using is a detailed course map. All it takes is a large poster paper and ink marker. The map would have to be drawn AFTER the course is firmly established, and preferably BEFORE the course walk. It could then be posted near the Timing and Scoring canopy.

A pre-printed hand-out map would only work if the course is finalized the day before the event.

ea-sport
08-31-2009, 10:16 AM
Steve, I got a few of you from this event:

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0063.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0064.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0065.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0150.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0151.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0152.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0153.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0154.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0155.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0156.JPG

http://boostedmiata.com/autox/8-29-09/DSC_0157.JPG
You got anything from the second morning session (2XX)? Thanks.

ronh21
08-31-2009, 11:28 AM
One of the things we have gotten away from using is a detailed course map. All it takes is a large poster paper and ink marker. The map would have to be drawn AFTER the course is firmly established, and preferably BEFORE the course walk. It could then be posted near the Timing and Scoring canopy.

A pre-printed hand-out map would only work if the course is finalized the day before the event.

I was thinking about bringing a whiteboard and markers to the next event for that, if people think it would be helpful. I could bring it each time, or just toss it in the trailer.

Braineack
08-31-2009, 11:28 AM
I think I got just about everyone in the morning session...I got kinda lazy during the second half.

http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f104/Rev2Red/NCC%20BMW%20AUTOX%208-29-09/

turbosporttsi
08-31-2009, 01:14 PM
Great pics, man. Thanks!

jbrannon7
08-31-2009, 03:07 PM
great pics, man. Thanks!
+1

ea-sport
08-31-2009, 04:19 PM
Great pics, man. Thanks!

+1. Found mine :biggrin:.

mduhovich
08-31-2009, 09:04 PM
I have a couple of pics here...

that's my favorite:
http://picasaweb.google.com/aduhovich/cars#5376310962896421602

http://picasaweb.google.com/aduhovich/cars#5376311066235251490

http://picasaweb.google.com/aduhovich/cars#5376311108794696690

http://picasaweb.google.com/aduhovich/cars#5376313127226893682

http://picasaweb.google.com/aduhovich/cars#5376311669806576098

KatieT
08-31-2009, 09:16 PM
My pics are uploading and should be ready tomorrow sometime (they never seem to want to upload at once). I'll apologize because I know that I didn't get pics of everyone this time and that a higher number than usual I threw out because they were blurry. I'm posting 994 this time I think.

~Katie

woodym3
08-31-2009, 09:31 PM
I was thinking about bringing a whiteboard and markers to the next event for that, if people think it would be helpful. I could bring it each time, or just toss it in the trailer.

Good idea Ron. Are you good at drawing maps?

95Maxrider
09-01-2009, 03:03 PM
Here's my final run:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/95maxrider/th_4thrun.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/95maxrider/?action=view&current=4thrun.flv)

You can see how much I need to saw at the wheel just to make it around the slalom. Hopefully the new steering rack out of a 97 SE Maxima will help solve that problem :) I had a great time Saturday, and although I had trouble with the tight slaloms, I think it was a great course. I really liked the offset boxes!

KatieT
09-02-2009, 06:28 PM
Mine are up here (http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/9478148_69FrC#636190385_udVct). I'll apologize because I think I missed a few people but I tried. I need to play with some settings on my camera too but enjoy them anyway!

~Katie

woodym3
09-02-2009, 08:42 PM
I have a couple of pics here...

that's my favorite:
http://picasaweb.google.com/aduhovich/cars#5376310962896421602



Alex/Maria,
That sunset photo of the X5 is outstanding!

Reach
09-02-2009, 11:14 PM
Katie, as usual, you are in the right place at the right time. This went on my facebook page:
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/5572/coneshot.png
"If you're going to hit a cone, go for the kill."

KatieT
09-03-2009, 06:03 AM
Katie, as usual, you are in the right place at the right time. This went on my facebook page: ... "If you're going to hit a cone, go for the kill.":biggrin: I liked that pic. There's one of Pete doing the same thing at another point and a few others I think.

~Katie

mduhovich
09-03-2009, 09:21 AM
Alex/Maria,
That sunset photo of the X5 is outstanding!
thank you, Woody =)

mduhovich
09-03-2009, 09:30 AM
Katie, as usual, you are in the right place at the right time. "If you're going to hit a cone, go for the kill." =)) great pic

phenryiv1
09-03-2009, 02:58 PM
Here's my final run:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/95maxrider/th_4thrun.jpg (http://s72.photobucket.com/albums/i161/95maxrider/?action=view&current=4thrun.flv)

You can see how much I need to saw at the wheel just to make it around the slalom. Hopefully the new steering rack out of a 97 SE Maxima will help solve that problem :) I had a great time Saturday, and although I had trouble with the tight slaloms, I think it was a great course. I really liked the offset boxes!
I see that the camera mount is working out for you... :biggrin:

noelleslie
09-07-2009, 10:35 PM
Look at this video:

I'm all for it, as long as someone else sets up the cones.

I don't know.. Bogdan?? [picking an arbitrary name] :)

No. I know... RON H. Thanks for being a sport, bro. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3vBMxKfn2o&feature=sub

Reach
09-08-2009, 08:59 AM
Must be sponsored by the traffic cone company. Quite a long course too, especially with all those cones.

I'm picturing a few +9's and some pissed off course workers.

woodym3
09-08-2009, 04:09 PM
Look at this video:

I'm all for it, as long as someone else sets up the cones.

I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3vBMxKfn2o&feature=sub

487 cones!! No, I didn't really count them. I guess they don't want any creativity on the driving line.

mcoupemindy
09-08-2009, 04:22 PM
487 cones!! No, I didn't really count them. I guess they don't want any creativity on the driving line.

I'd need to upgrade my truck just to haul all that equipment out there ...

That's way too many cones. 1/8th would have sufficed.

mduhovich
09-08-2009, 05:39 PM
Look at this video:

I'm all for it, as long as someone else sets up the cones.

I don't know.. Bogdan?? [picking an arbitrary name] :)

No. I know... RON H. Thanks for being a sport, bro. :)

wow.. =) it must be hard to get lost there

the course itself is very different too