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BahnBaum
11-04-2004, 11:18 AM
So here's a cut and paste from the autox section regarding Showroom Class:

Showroom
This class is stock. The car MUST be as available from the factory. This will allow for wheel changes, but they must be in a size available as an option on the car. The intention for this class is that aftermarket factory style parts can be replaced. So you can use non-adjustable shocks, any brake pads, rotors (no slotted or cross-drilled, just any manufacturer), any type of street tire (not R-Compounds), or minor appearance items such as different bumpers due to crash repairs. CG-Lock seat belt restraints will be allowed.

I have two specific questions:

When it says, "This will allow for wheel changes, but they must be in a size available as an option on the car. ", would this allow the use of any size tire on a stock wheel size?

When it says, "...any type of street tire (not R-Compounds)," what is the definition of R-Compounds? If the tire is street legal, like RA1s, would those be considered street tires and therefore legal in Showroom? Or is there some treadwear rating where street legal tires are considered R-comps and therefore not considered a "street tire" for the purposes of the classing definition?

Thanks!
Alex

Pete
11-04-2004, 11:37 AM
Someone correct me if I understand this incorrectly:

The spirit of the rules are basically you are to stay stock but the rules allow for OE type replacement parts for standard maintanence items IE brake pads etc.

You can change the wheels but they must be the same size/width that was offered as an option.

As for the tires, R-Comp tires are not allowed in showroom. A stretching of the rules would be running an Azeni or MX.

Pete

jkuper
11-04-2004, 11:46 AM
MX what? Kumhos? I don;t think they are different from S03s or BFG KDs. Still a street tire....

BahnBaum
11-04-2004, 11:53 AM
You can change the wheels but they must be the same size/width that was offered as an option.
I understand wheels. How about tire sizes?



As for the tires, R-Comp tires are not allowed in showroom. A stretching of the rules would be running an Azeni or MX.
Part of my problem is that I don't understand the definition of R-Comps. I always assumed that R-comps were not street legal. I've prolly been looking at this incorrectly.

Alex

Pete
11-04-2004, 12:00 PM
I'm not sure on the tire width question. Someone else chime in. I would interpret the rules indicating that you could go with optional tire widths and not deviate from it.

The R-Comp tires are still technically DOT legal. Our classing does not allow or R-Comps. The term street tire is implying non R's.

Pete

jkuper
11-04-2004, 12:02 PM
I would say stock sizes only for tires as well. I think that's the idea of showroom. R-comps are DOT certified, but I think if you got pulled over running almost no tread RA-1s, you might be in trouble. Look at Ken - he ran V700 265/35 with nothing else but a front sway and was in prepared category. I am not sure about someone we know running 255s all the way around in Showroom...I think NCC rules allow some slack...

jkuper
11-04-2004, 12:03 PM
I'm not sure on the tire width question. Someone else chime in. I would interpret the rules indicating that you could go with optional tire widths and not deviate from it.

The R-Comp tires are still technically DOT legal. Our classing does not allow or R-Comps. The term street tire is implying non R's.

Pete


No such thing as optional width on E46 M3. Both 18 and 19" tires are 225/255

FT
11-04-2004, 12:43 PM
I think you can define r-comps as any tire with tread wear rating less than 140.

BahnBaum
11-04-2004, 12:51 PM
This is what I was looking at doing, in order of importance:

1) go to a wider width front tire on my stock wheels
2) remain in Showroom M and A Stock
3) consider going to RA1s as my car is not my daily driver

So it sounds like I definately can't accomplish #2 and #3 under either NCC or SCCA rules, right?

And it even sounds like #1 and #2 together don't meet the "spirit" of the NCC classing rules.

Am I looking at this correctly?

Alex

jkuper
11-04-2004, 12:58 PM
I think if you went to a wider tire and used RA-1s, you would still be in AS with SCCA. But that should put you out of NCCs Showroom. SCCA stock class allows for

Anything available on the exact model and year of your car as standard or optional equipment, as installed on the factory assembly line (nothing available only dealer-installed is allowed), plus
Standard OEM identical replacement parts
Accessories, gauges, appearance, comfort, and convenience items (not replacement driver's seat, though) that basically don't help
Added roll bar or roll cage to spec (not required, though)
Driver harness (no cutting seats to install, though)
Trailer hitch and/or tow bar mountings
Any wheel of diameter and width identical to a stock or factory optional wheel, offset within +- 0.25 inch
Most street legal tires that will fit the mounted wheels and stock bodywork
Any shock absorber of the same type and mounting as original; no change to standard spring mountings is allowed; suspension geometry may not be altered; gas or hydraulic shocks are permitted
Any brake linings; pre-1992 cars may use solid/braided metal brake lines.
Any front anti-roll bar (no change to stock/optional rear anti-roll bar, if present)
Manufacturer specified ignition settings only
Any replacement air filter element (or removal of air filter element); no plumbing changes, however
Engine bored no more than .020"; no balancing or porting/polishing of head
Replacement of any part of the exhaust system past the catalytic converter (if quiet)
Any oil filter
Added clutch scattershield

I think street legal tire in this case is any DOT tire, basically not drag radials or what have you.

hoyabmw
11-04-2004, 01:00 PM
You guys pretty much have covered it. The intention of Showroom is to be as available from the factory (or similar replacement parts.) I believe (and as the one who wrote up the rules... :cool: ) that going up to a wider tire should not be allowed in showroom.

All R-Comps are illegal in showroom. That means RA1s, Hoosiers, Victoracers, Ecsta V700s, Ecsta V710s, Avon's tires that look similar to hoosiers, Yok A032Rs, etc. All R-comps as defined by anyone must be DOT legal tires, which means they are legal to drive on the road, although with most of them it's not a very good idea. It's hard to nail down a definition of an R tire that spans all manufacturers, but in most cases they will not give you a treadwear rating, or if they do it's VERY low (like 30.) I think Falken Azenis have a 200 rating, for reference, and that's the closest tire I know of to an R-comp that isn't one. It would probably be taken as really pushing the limits, but if that is available in the right size, then it would be allowed within the rules as written.

Kevin

jkuper
11-04-2004, 01:04 PM
Kevin, I got your reply, thanks. Still processing...

Pinecone
11-19-2004, 07:26 AM
SCCA uses 140 tread wear rating to define Street tires for STS and other Street tire classes.

Alex, why not go to R-comps and put a front bar on the car and run Prepared and still be A Stock SCCA?

BahnBaum
11-19-2004, 08:10 AM
SCCA uses 140 tread wear rating to define Street tires for STS and other Street tire classes.

Alex, why not go to R-comps and put a front bar on the car and run Prepared and still be A Stock SCCA?

That's exactly what I'm leaning towards doing now, Terry.

Alex

Brandon
11-20-2004, 12:51 PM
The intention of Showroom is to be as available from the factory (or similar replacement parts.) I believe (and as the one who wrote up the rules... :cool: ) that going up to a wider tire should not be allowed in showroom.

I read the rule as only applying to wheels, not tires. I was running 205s intead of 195s all season in Showroom, but given that interpretation, I should have been in Prepared. I'll be in Prepared next season, especially after the mods I've made this month.

Woody is the rightful owner of the top spot in Showroom this season. I can't wait for next season to start so I can chase down Rafael (yeah, like that's going to happen.) :roll:

Brandon

BahnBaum
11-20-2004, 03:32 PM
I read the rule as only applying to wheels, not tires. I was running 205s intead of 195s all season in Showroom, but given that interpretation, I should have been in Prepared. I'll be in Prepared next season, especially after the mods I've made this month.

That's how I read it too, especially since it specifically references wheel size and not wheel and tire size. But it's clear that I was misinterpreting it too.

Alex

hoyabmw
12-03-2004, 11:25 AM
I read the rule as only applying to wheels, not tires. I was running 205s intead of 195s all season in Showroom, but given that interpretation, I should have been in Prepared. I'll be in Prepared next season, especially after the mods I've made this month.

That's how I read it too, especially since it specifically references wheel size and not wheel and tire size. But it's clear that I was misinterpreting it too.

Alex

As this was not clarified (or even really brought up) until after the season, the results will stand as they are. 205 vs 195 on an E30 cabrio won't do much anyway. But for next year I will suggest (although it won't be my responsibility! :) ) that some clarifications be made to the rules for showroom, as well as any realignment that is deemed necessary.

You hear that Team BAR? :cool:

Kevin

Pete
12-03-2004, 03:33 PM
Got it!

Pete

woodym3
12-04-2004, 11:33 AM
[quote]Woody is the rightful owner of the top spot in Showroom this season. I can't wait for next season to start so I can chase down Rafael (yeah, like that's going to happen.)

But I wasn't legal either Brandon - 69 cent homemade clutch stop has been in the car several years and I forgot about it. It would have been 30 seconds to remove.
Woody

Doby
12-06-2004, 10:46 AM
See that's where I think the BMW autox classes should be way different then the SCCA. Shift knobs, clutch stops, chrome valve stem caps, tiger tail hanging out of the gas tank, etc shouldn't remove a car from showroom.

Rafgar
12-06-2004, 04:36 PM
See that's where I think the BMW autox classes should be way different then the SCCA. Shift knobs, clutch stops, chrome valve stem caps, tiger tail hanging out of the gas tank, etc shouldn't remove a car from showroom.

John,

I agree, "cosmetic" or "replacement" items should not count. The difficulty becomes making a rule that can be fairly applied.

The easiest rule is simply "no changes from stock to anything - stock means stock". Is that fair? Probably not if it's applied to "cosmetic" changes as you described.

The next step would be to prepare a rule that says something like "no changes that significantly improve performance are allowed in the stock class." Arguably (and this is subject to interpretation), things like clutch stops, shift nobs, short-shifters, bumping the width of the tires by 10mm (on the stock size rims), Koni SAs, etc. The question becomes one of interpretation for every given situation. Administratively, this could be a nightmare.

Another step could be to specifically list certain "changes" that are allowed in the "stock" class. If something is listed, you can do it - if it's not specifically listed, then you can't do it (such as with SCCA). You run the risk of forgeting to list something that truely doesn't help the performance. But, it's much easier to adminster.

Doby
12-06-2004, 04:56 PM
Yeah, it's a can of worms, but I think with a forum like this, the amount of heads thinking about it could come up with a pretty good list. :)

Pinecone
01-10-2005, 09:53 AM
Yeah, but they allow Bilstein shock in Showroom. And they are a performance mod.

I have always read the rules to mean that tire sizes on stock sized (or optional sizes) are legal.

Pete
01-10-2005, 10:23 AM
Yes, I would interpret tire size variations provided that they where an optional size offered on the car legal for stock.

Pete

AlfaEric
01-10-2005, 10:29 AM
Yeah, but they allow Bilstein shock in Showroom. And they are a performance mod.

I have always read the rules to mean that tire sizes on stock sized (or optional sizes) are legal.
The intention for this class is that aftermarket factory style parts can be replaced. Shocks can be replaced provided they are non-adjustable. Use your best judgment... If you are debating on the legalities of something then it's probably best to move to prepared. :)

---Eric