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Pete
11-17-2006, 09:21 AM
Hello Everyone,

I wanted to let everyone know that the Classing Meeting will be held on December 19, 2006 at 7:00 PM. The meeting will be held at Famous Daves BBQ in Gaithersburg, MD.

917 Quince Orchard Road
Gaithersburg, MD 20878

http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&addr=917+Quince+Orchard+Road&csz=Gaithersburg%2C+MD&country=us&Get%A0Map=Get+Map

If you plan on attending, please let us know here as I need a general headcount to reserve a table.

Also, this would be the ideal place to discuss any classing changes for 2007.

As discussed in a different thread, where to put the Mini's are always a good starting point.

Another point of discussion is where to class the 335i. As most of you are aware, this car is pumping out well over 320hp and is as fast as the E46 M3. Should this car be placed with the M3's or the normal 6 cylinder cars?

Please discuss,

Pete

bren
12-06-2006, 10:40 PM
Another point of discussion is where to class the 335i. As most of you are aware, this car is pumping out well over 320hp and is as fast as the E46 M3. Should this car be placed with the M3's or the normal 6 cylinder cars?

Please discuss,

Pete
Somehow I missed this thread so here is my opinion since I won't be at the meeting....

The 335 may be as fast as a the (current) M3 in a drag race, but thankfully we have turns in autox.

To sum up: No LSD + 3600lbs = http://forums.carmudgeons.com/images/smilies/piggy.gif

clyde
12-06-2006, 11:02 PM
As most of you are aware, this car is pumping out well over 320hp and is as fast as the E46 M3.

In a drag race or an autocross?

Pete
12-07-2006, 07:42 AM
In a drag race or an autocross?

In a drag race definately. Time will tell about the turning part. My concern is that these cars will blow away everything else in the showroom class and thus this discussion. For what I have read (see magazine racing), these cars handle very well.

Pete

bren
12-07-2006, 08:57 AM
Every year the cars will get faster and handle better, it is what it is.

You'll have to go to far more classes to be "fair" to everyone (see the SCCA mess of classing to get an idea.)

JST
12-07-2006, 12:59 PM
Every year the cars will get faster and handle better, it is what it is.

You'll have to go to far more classes to be "fair" to everyone (see the SCCA mess of classing to get an idea.)


Agreed. You could have made a similar argument about the E46 330, which had similar power and performance numbers to the prior generation M3. And what will we do with the E92 M3 when it becomes available, assuming that it can smoke all of the prior-gen M cars?

At the end of the day, I'd be stunned if (assuming the same driver) a 335 could stay with an E46 M3 around an autocross course. As bren mentioned, without an LSD (and with a couple of hundred extra lbs) the 335 just isn't going to cut it. Hell, my 330 is already severely hampered by inside-wheel spin, and it has nowhere near the wall of torque that the new twin turbo engine does.

I won't be able to make the classing meeting, but my 2c is that the 335 should stay in the same class as the 330 and other non-M BMWs.

EDIT: Even as against an E46 ZHP, I'm not sure that the 335 will have the advantage you assume (and even at that, when was the last time a ZHP won its class in our region? The differences in E36s and E46s haven't generally been big enough to overcome the differences in drivers).

Yes, the 335 has a lot more power, but as I note above, the ZHP can't make effective use of all the power it has, so adding power isn't necessarily a huge advantage (especially on the tiny lots we use). The suspension geometry is presumably improved, but have E90 330s been putting E46s on the trailer? I don't know the answer, but I doubt it. And the weight penalty is huge; 200-300 additional lbs.

Pete
12-07-2006, 01:26 PM
Interesting perspective. Please keep the opinions coming.

Pete

CAB IN BLACK M3
12-11-2006, 09:10 PM
I agree with Bren....I understand the need for classes, but I think keeping the classes to a minimum would be best adding classes just to include one car is probably not the best idea. Let the 335 race against the othe 3 series cars....

Our club runs one of the better autoX events and I think we should do everything in our power to keep it as uncomplicated as possible....

Besides....Trying to figure out how to move Bobbie up in PAX Rankings next year should be a more important issue! LOL

Pete
12-11-2006, 10:25 PM
I agree with Bren....I understand the need for classes, but I think keeping the classes to a minimum would be best adding classes just to include one car is probably not the best idea. Let the 335 race against the othe 3 series cars....

Our club runs one of the better autoX events and I think we should do everything in our power to keep it as uncomplicated as possible....

Besides....Trying to figure out how to move Bobbie up in PAX Rankings next year should be a more important issue! LOL

I just drove Booger's new 335is and I can confidently say that it would absolutely decimate the E36 and E46 3 series cars. The power on the car is phenomenal (see more torque than E46 M3 at low and mid rpm), with virtually no lag. I have no idea what this thing can do up top since it's still in break in period but would venture that the car is as quick as the E46 M3. The argument for the cars additional weight contributing negatively to handling is more or less unfounded as it is easily as fast around turns as the E46 M3. The car is extremely quick and very easy to drive fast as it is forgiving.

Given the cars' abilities, I believe that in the correct hands this car would destroy the other cars in showroom. I think the 335 is analogous to making the 2002ti compete against the E36 328. It would unbalance the class and I fear the 335 would make novices (who mainly run in showroom) disheartened by the car they have to compete with. Therefore, eroding the environment that we have that encourages novices to participate.

I think we have 2 options:

1. To class the 335 cars in showroom M
2. Stick them in "prepared sport" but this would make the classing rules even more complex than they are now.

Please discuss,

Pete

PS- Bobby, to Pax higher is really quite simple. Drive faster ;)
That and mod the car, not the driver.

bren
12-12-2006, 08:47 AM
It's good to hear that you have such a finely tuned butt dyno. http://images.bimmerforums.com/smilies/thumbup.gif

AlfaEric
12-12-2006, 09:14 AM
I just drove Booger's new 335is and I can confidently say that it would absolutely decimate the E36 and E46 3 series cars. The power on the car is phenomenal (see more torque than E46 M3 at low and mid rpm), with virtually no lag. I have no idea what this thing can do up top since it's still in break in period but would venture that the car is as quick as the E46 M3. The argument for the cars additional weight contributing negatively to handling is more or less unfounded as it is easily as fast around turns as the E46 M3. The car is extremely quick and very easy to drive fast as it is forgiving.

Given the cars' abilities, I believe that in the correct hands this car would destroy the other cars in showroom. I think the 335 is analogous to making the 2002ti compete against the E36 328. It would unbalance the class and I fear the 335 would make novices (who mainly run in showroom) disheartened by the car they have to compete with. Therefore, eroding the environment that we have that encourages novices to participate.

I think we have 2 options:

1. To class the 335 cars in showroom M
2. Stick them in "prepared sport" but this would make the classing rules even more complex than they are now.

Please discuss,

Pete

PS- Bobby, to Pax higher is really quite simple. Drive faster ;)
That and mod the car, not the driver.
Pete,

You mention that you feel that the 335 would make novices in showroom feel disheartened... What about any novices who come out with a 335? Wouldn't they feel that way having to drive their unmodified car in Prepared Sport or Showroom M? This would be even worse for them when people start coming out with modified 335s and they are still running stock. If you wish to promote novices more, bring back the novice class (based on PAX). :)

BMW is going to (hopefully) keep making faster, better handling cars. The showroom class should be able to adjust simply because people can upclass themselves into their proper class or (over time) are more likely to have made modifications to the car that upclasses them anyway. I've seen unmodified e30s run recently in showroom even though they could do much better if they upclassed themselves into a prepared class. I wouldn't worry so much about having them in showroom, I would be more concerned about where you are going to put them when they have mods. :wink:

---Eric

AlfaEric
12-12-2006, 09:26 AM
Other items to cover:

Unlimited class: Are we going to keep this?

Options for MINIs:
Leave 2 classes (it doesn't seem to be popular and there weren't enough cars)
Combine to 1 class (regardless of if they have mods or not)
Place them back in X/XR
Merge them in with the BMWs (there are going to be a lot of complaints with this one).
Put them all in Unlimited (and throw the 335's in there just for the heck of it) :biggrin:

---Eric

bren
12-12-2006, 09:56 AM
Other items to cover:

Unlimited class: Are we going to keep this?

Options for MINIs:
Leave 2 classes (it doesn't seem to be popular and there weren't enough cars)
Combine to 1 class (regardless of if they have mods or not)
Place them back in X/XR
Merge them in with the BMWs (there are going to be a lot of complaints with this one).
Put them all in Unlimited (and throw the 335's in there just for the heck of it) :biggrin:

---Eric
I'd leave the unlimited class. Chances are anyone running there isn't all that interested in the NCC autox points chase anyway (I assume you bring it up for lack of competition?)

I'd gladly take a Cooper S against a 335 on any of the lots used by the NCC.

AlfaEric
12-12-2006, 10:28 AM
I'd leave the unlimited class. Chances are anyone running there isn't all that interested in the NCC autox points chase anyway (I assume you bring it up for lack of competition?)

I'd gladly take a Cooper S against a 335 on any of the lots used by the NCC.
I just thought it is something we should revisit since it was a new class. There were 14 people who drove in that class for the season (only 1 did enough events for points to count). It seemed to be a touchy subject when it was first added but I don't think it worked out that bad. I just wanted to see how other people felt about it.

---Eric

woodym3
12-12-2006, 11:04 AM
I was against the Unlimited class from the beginning even though it would mean less competition for my underpowered E30 M3. Let's look back at the 2006 season and see if this class is necessary:

April 8 had one entry. It would have been 2nd if running in SSM.

May 27 had 7 entries, three of them were driving Neil Simon's supercharged M Coupe. I my opinion this is the only car running with our chapter that should be given "Unlimited" status. If these 7 had run in SSM two of them, John V and Neil, would have been 1st and 2nd. The other five would have been below 6th place in SSM. This was the only event Neil's Coupe attended.

June 18 had 4 entries. One would have been 2nd in SSM, the other three would have been the last three cars in SSM.

Aug 5 had 4 entries. All of them would have been worse than 8th place in SSM.

Sept 23 had 1 entry. He would have been last in SSM by 5 seconds.

Oct 21 had 4 entries. Bud Schreiber would have been 2nd in SSM, another would have been 6th in SSM and the other two would have been the last two cars in SSM.

Obviously adding aftermarket camshafts doesn't make for a dominating autocross car. In my opinion the class has not been successful or necessary, and again, this is coming from someone who stands to benefit from not having to run against Neil's Coupe.

Pete
12-12-2006, 11:46 AM
It's good to hear that you have such a finely tuned butt dyno. http://images.bimmerforums.com/smilies/thumbup.gif

While it is a butt dyno evalution, this car easily rivals the E46 M3.
The issue I believe is more of a situation of where the technology and abilities of this car far exceed the capabilities of the older cars. Take my last post as a good comparison of pitting a stock 2002ti against the 328IS. While the 328 is heavier and more powerful than the 2002ti, the end result of the whole car is a faster car hands down (due to suspension, brakes and other improvements) and this would not be fair to the guys running stock older 3 series cars.

The question is do we approach this with a new grouping or stick them in a group that exists where it is approximately even.

To be perfectly honest I could careless where we stick them since I have no vested interest. I do have a concern that this will deter novices from participating after learning that they have a sizeable margin to close because there is a noticably superior car in the class.

Pete

bren
12-12-2006, 12:13 PM
So stick them somewhere and see how it goes. I wonder how many 335's are going to show up anyway. IIRC, there were no e90 cars this year at any events.

AlfaEric
12-12-2006, 01:13 PM
While it is a butt dyno evalution, this car easily rivals the E46 M3.
The issue I believe is more of a situation of where the technology and abilities of this car far exceed the capabilities of the older cars. Take my last post as a good comparison of pitting a stock 2002ti against the 328IS. While the 328 is heavier and more powerful than the 2002ti, the end result of the whole car is a faster car hands down (due to suspension, brakes and other improvements) and this would not be fair to the guys running stock older 3 series cars.

The question is do we approach this with a new grouping or stick them in a group that exists where it is approximately even.

To be perfectly honest I could careless where we stick them since I have no vested interest. I do have a concern that this will deter novices from participating after learning that they have a sizeable margin to close because there is a noticably superior car in the class.

Pete
Technology is going to continue to increase. That's what a few people have been saying. Someone running a stock 2002ti currently WOULD be against someone running a stock 328is (if they both chose to run showroom). That is why the person with the 2002ti would typically upclass themselves into PT.

A person with a stock 328is would typically run in showroom. It's up to them to decide if they want to run in showroom or in a prepared class. If a lot of people decide to run 335s in showroom next season then it might be worth it for them to run in prepared. If not, they could consider staying in showroom. The showroom class is always going to get faster (hopefully). You shouldn't need to limit it because of older models. You should only be worrying about where to class cars for modified/prepared. Just assume that older cars are going to be modded and moved into the appropriate class over time.

---Eric

JST
12-12-2006, 01:18 PM
I just drove Booger's new 335is and I can confidently say that it would absolutely decimate the E36 and E46 3 series cars. The power on the car is phenomenal (see more torque than E46 M3 at low and mid rpm), with virtually no lag. I have no idea what this thing can do up top since it's still in break in period but would venture that the car is as quick as the E46 M3. The argument for the cars additional weight contributing negatively to handling is more or less unfounded as it is easily as fast around turns as the E46 M3. The car is extremely quick and very easy to drive fast as it is forgiving.


There is literally no way to judge this without putting a stop watch on it. All the same, physics is physics. The 335 weighs a lot more than the M3 and has the same size tire/wheel combo (with 18s on both cars)--that is going to affect handling. I don't think you can say that's unfounded based on the results of a brief test drive.

Moreover, what about the traction arguments? The 335 is plenty fast on the street, but what happens when you turn DTC off and try and put 300 lbs/ft of torque down through a peg leg diff? If an E46 330 is already traction-limited without an LSD, how is adding gobs more power and torque going to really help the 335?




Given the cars' abilities, I believe that in the correct hands this car would destroy the other cars in showroom. I think the 335 is analogous to making the 2002ti compete against the E36 328. It would unbalance the class and I fear the 335 would make novices (who mainly run in showroom) disheartened by the car they have to compete with. Therefore, eroding the environment that we have that encourages novices to participate.


"In the correct hands?" Perhaps. How many people with the correct hands are going to be running 335s this year, especially in stock class?

I agree with the other posters--it's likely that at least some novices will show up in 335s, and if they have to run against M3s they are going to be just as demoralized as anyone else.



I think we have 2 options:

1. To class the 335 cars in showroom M
2. Stick them in "prepared sport" but this would make the classing rules even more complex than they are now.



The third option (and I think the best one) is to put them in showroom non-M, which is where they belong, since they are stock, non-M cars.

Absent empirical evidence as to just how dominant the 335 is (if, in fact, it will be), I don't see any reason to change the classing structure that we have already established. Non-M, stock cars should presumptively be in the non-M, stock category.

If 335s turn up and start rendering everything else in stock non-competitive, we can absolutely re-class them next year (though, by then, the 400+ hp M3 with a limited slip may be out--where are we going to put that? Showroom Really Fast M?)

Look, we have two categories of showroom cars. That will lead to unfairness. Do you really think that an E24 M635CSi is going to be as fast around an autocross course as an Z4 M? Or that an E34 M5 can compete with an E46 M3? Of course not. Some cars in a class are going to be faster than other cars in a class. That's the way it is.

There is no reason to chart a different course with the 335. It's going to be faster than an E46 330 (probably), but an E46 330 is going to wipe the floor with an E36 318iCA, too, and those cars are in the same class.

Biggins
12-12-2006, 01:25 PM
I really don't mind the idea to move the Minis into Touring (base), Sport (S), Supersport (JCW). The only thing I have against it is that some unknown to NCC may not understand why they're up against Minis at a BMWCCA event.

I do know if a well prepped/good pilot HS Mini shows up, our tight competition in Touring may turn into a battle for distant 2nd. Also, a well prepped GS Mini would be difficult to beat in Sport. This is all theoretical, but I know as I've improved I'm still nowhere near an HS Mini time, but on par with Touring competitors.

AlfaEric
12-12-2006, 01:31 PM
I really don't mind the idea to move the Minis into Touring (base), Sport (S), Supersport (JCW). The only thing I have against it is that some unknown to NCC may not understand why they're up against Minis at a BMWCCA event.

I do know if a well prepped/good pilot HS Mini shows up, our tight competition in Touring may turn into a battle for distant 2nd. Also, a well prepped GS Mini would be difficult to beat in Sport. This is all theoretical, but I know as I've improved I'm still nowhere near an HS Mini time, but on par with Touring competitors.
We looked at this a while back and I believe a Mini would have taken 1st place in Touring by several seconds (when 2nd->5th was within a fraction of a second apart). Someone would have to verify this though... I'm not going back through all the results.

---Eric

woodym3
12-12-2006, 02:16 PM
We looked at this a while back and I believe a Mini would have taken 1st place in Touring by several seconds (when 2nd->5th was within a fraction of a second apart). Someone would have to verify this though... I'm not going back through all the results.

---Eric
Is this what you are thinking about Eric? It's what I sent to you and Pete last week about how Jim Harris' Cooper S (on Street Tires) would have fared if competing in Prepared Sport:

Hmmm. You may have a point Pete. Jim Harris ran our first five events. His car is not radically prepared (he runs STX in SCCA) and I think he did our events on "street" tires. So he would be in Prepared Sport under my proposal. This past season he would have finished 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 4th and 1st in PS.

AlfaEric
12-12-2006, 02:37 PM
Is this what you are thinking about Eric? It's what I sent to you and Pete last week about how Jim Harris' Cooper S (on Street Tires) would have fared if competing in Prepared Sport:

Hmmm. You may have a point Pete. Jim Harris ran our first five events. His car is not radically prepared (he runs STX in SCCA) and I think he did our events on "street" tires. So he would be in Prepared Sport under my proposal. This past season he would have finished 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 4th and 1st in PS.
That wasn't exactly what I was looking for but it works. I remember looking at the non-s cars a while back (very little data) when the discussion came up about either adding MINI classes or merging them. The same classing suggestions came up back then (PT/PS).

---Eric

John V
12-12-2006, 02:39 PM
A 335 will have no chance against an equally prepared and driven E46 M3 around an autocross course.

The SCCA put the thing in F Stock for chrissakes and none of those folks are at all concerned about a 3500+lb, one-wheel drive BMW.

Put the car in "Showroom" and be done with it.

BahnBaum
12-12-2006, 10:00 PM
And put the Mini S's in Sport. As Woody points out, Jim H's STX mini's times would have put him near the top of Prepared Sport, which is where his driving should have him. I'm assuming the non S would slot well into Touring.

Alex

Pete
12-13-2006, 11:34 AM
And put the Mini S's in Sport. As Woody points out, Jim H's STX mini's times would have put him near the top of Prepared Sport, which is where his driving should have him. I'm assuming the non S would slot well into Touring.

Alex


Yep. That was the idea we are toying around with.

As for the 335 issue, there will be at least 2 with decent drivers next year. I guess they can discourage novices from participating in showroom. A single 335is was in our last 2 events. He was novice and kept driving aids on. I believe so he was slower than the other guys in showroom.

I am open to the option of classing them in a class and moving them around if neccesary (at the end of the year).

JST
12-13-2006, 11:51 AM
Yep. That was the idea we are toying around with.

As for the 335 issue, there will be at least 2 with decent drivers next year. I guess they can discourage novices from participating in showroom. A single 335is was in our last 2 events. He was novice and kept driving aids on. I believe so he was slower than the other guys in showroom.

I am open to the option of classing them in a class and moving them around if neccesary (at the end of the year).

There will be two with decent drivers running in showroom? Or will they have mods (like tires) that will kick them out of the showroom class?

I think it makes sense to class them in showroom and revisit the issue at the end of the year. I assume the re-classification would apply prospectively only, though, and that we wouldn't be trying to re-class cars in events that have already taken place.

Pete
12-13-2006, 02:06 PM
There will be two with decent drivers running in showroom? Or will they have mods (like tires) that will kick them out of the showroom class?

I think it makes sense to class them in showroom and revisit the issue at the end of the year. I assume the re-classification would apply prospectively only, though, and that we wouldn't be trying to re-class cars in events that have already taken place.

They will be stock.

I was thinking put them in stick them in a class perhaps, showroom M or Showroom and depending on how fast they are, then they may get moved.

Sort of like the contingent Mini class we did last year. We set up a class, but if they didn't have enough for a group, then they where going to get put back into X for the year end points. We could do something like that here.

Pete

woodym3
12-13-2006, 10:12 PM
Hello Everyone,

I wanted to let everyone know that the Classing Meeting will be held on December 19, 2006 at 7:00 PM. The meeting will be held at Famous Daves BBQ in Gaithersburg, MD.

917 Quince Orchard Road
Gaithersburg, MD 20878

[
Pete
I found out tonight that this meeting is actually Saturday, December 16!!

Pete
12-14-2006, 07:54 AM
I found out tonight that this meeting is actually Saturday, December 16!!

My mistake. It is on the 19th Tuesday. Sorry about that.

Pete

JST
12-14-2006, 05:57 PM
They will be stock.

I was thinking put them in stick them in a class perhaps, showroom M or Showroom and depending on how fast they are, then they may get moved.

Sort of like the contingent Mini class we did last year. We set up a class, but if they didn't have enough for a group, then they where going to get put back into X for the year end points. We could do something like that here.

Pete

I think moving them at the end of the season is not ideal, because unlike the Rawlsian veil of ignorance we are all operating under now, there will be no shortage of vested interests at the end of the year when we see what the actual times are. Nonetheless, I suppose I am OK with it--but if we are going to do provisional classing, we should start out with them in showroom, not M.

Whereever you put the showroom cars, I think the prepared cars should go in prepared sport, not prepared M.

One specific point to make on the 335s, though--in "prepared" class, the rules currently allow "Any aftermarket chip." We should specifically exclude the 335 (or any other turbo BMW, to the extent that there end up being 535s, etc.) from that proviso. The Xede boost controllers are arguably "aftermarket chips" that provide a massive performance boost, far higher than anything a N/A car can get with a chip. I think the 335s should be excluded entirely from using aftermarket chips in prepared just because I don't know that anyone is going to develop a non-boost controlling chip, and I don't know how you'd tell that chip apart from a boost-controlling chip. Boost controllers should bump you into at least modified.

AG
12-14-2006, 07:31 PM
Just a thought... How about splitting showroom non-M into two separate classes? The first comprising the current and once-removed generation of any series while the other class is for everything else. If someone wants to mod their car, that will put them into PS or MS. This will give folks in older cars a chance while sort of keeping the status quo.

woodym3
12-14-2006, 10:51 PM
I think AG's suggestion has lots of merit. Showroom non-M cars was one of our more populated classes in 2006 and, in theory, covers everything from the slowest BMW ever made to Z4s with 255 hp and sport packages. And now possibly the 300hp 335i.

JST
12-15-2006, 08:33 AM
I think AG's suggestion has lots of merit. Showroom non-M cars was one of our more populated classes in 2006 and, in theory, covers everything from the slowest BMW ever made to Z4s with 255 hp and sport packages. And now possibly the 300hp 335i.

I agree; I think AG makes an excellent point about adding modifications, too. By and large, the majority of people who run in stock are going to be people with recent vintage cars that either a) haven't had a chance to mod them, or b) are leasing/under warranty and don't want to mod them.

This proposal wouldn't address the gap between, say, an E46 330 and an E90 335, but for the reasons I (and others) have stated above, I don't think that gap will be as big as one might think.

(Note, also, that the rated 45 hp gap between the E90 330 (255 hp) and the E90 335 (300 hp) is smaller than the rated 65 hp gap between the E46 323 (170 hp) and the E46 330i ZHP (235 hp)).

John V
12-15-2006, 09:47 AM
Even better, why don't we create a unique class for each year and model of BMW? Sure, we'll have 18,000 classes, but that way, everybody wins!

Pete
12-16-2006, 07:47 AM
I agree; I think AG makes an excellent point about adding modifications, too. By and large, the majority of people who run in stock are going to be people with recent vintage cars that either a) haven't had a chance to mod them, or b) are leasing/under warranty and don't want to mod them.

This proposal wouldn't address the gap between, say, an E46 330 and an E90 335, but for the reasons I (and others) have stated above, I don't think that gap will be as big as one might think.

(Note, also, that the rated 45 hp gap between the E90 330 (255 hp) and the E90 335 (300 hp) is smaller than the rated 65 hp gap between the E46 323 (170 hp) and the E46 330i ZHP (235 hp)).


We too have been considering this option of splitting up Showroom non-M to a early model and late model group.

Pete

Biggins
12-17-2006, 05:59 PM
I cannot make the meeting on Tuesday now, but the only thing I was going to say/add at the meeting was that I think the classes should remain as they were last year (335i into Showroom, PS, and MS as other non-Ms). Eliminate the Mini classes and 1. merge the Minis into Touring (base), Sport (S model), and SuperSport (JCW and GP) to potentially add more cars/competition to those classes OR 2. put the Minis back where they were in 2005.

1996 328ti
12-20-2006, 10:53 PM
I forgot all about the meeting.
Did you pick any dates yet?

Pete
12-21-2006, 07:33 AM
I forgot all about the meeting.
Did you pick any dates yet?

For the meeting?

It was on the 19th.

Pete

1996 328ti
12-21-2006, 08:04 AM
For the meeting?

It was on the 19th.

PeteAs in a tentative schedule.

Pete
12-21-2006, 11:13 AM
Nope, not yet.

Still working on it.

Pete

gnhovis
01-30-2007, 09:55 AM
I haven't seen anything in this thread for a while. I didn't make the meeting -- come to any decisions about classing the MINI and the other issues discussed in the thread?

1996 328ti
01-30-2007, 01:22 PM
I haven't seen anything in this thread for a while. I didn't make the meeting -- come to any decisions about classing the MINI and the other issues discussed in the thread?I think it went back to X class.

woodym3
01-30-2007, 05:51 PM
From what I understand from Pete:
1. Minis go back to X class
2. We still have an Ultimate class
3. The twin-turbo 335 will be classed like an E46 M3, unless the software has been modified. Then it's classed like a Sauber-BMW F1 car.
4. The rules for the Prepared catagory will be clarified.

FWIW, I only agree with #4.

bren
01-30-2007, 06:24 PM
So did anyone go to the meeting? Obviously online member comment was ignored.

BahnBaum
01-30-2007, 07:12 PM
Any word on schedules?

Alex

1996 328ti
01-30-2007, 08:15 PM
Any word on schedules?

Alexhttp://www.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?autocross

JimHarris
02-02-2007, 09:52 AM
http://www.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?autocross

Cool. I can make all of those--with only one exception.

I've been looking at E46 M3s and Z4Ms with the intent of ending my unfortunate BMW-less phase, but there's always the MINI if that plan fails.

JST
02-02-2007, 11:08 PM
So did anyone go to the meeting? Obviously online member comment was ignored.

Sweet.

woodym3
02-02-2007, 11:23 PM
Cool. I can make all of those--with only one exception.

I've been looking at E46 M3s and Z4Ms with the intent of ending my unfortunate BMW-less phase, but there's always the MINI if that plan fails.
Jim,
If you (or anyone else) is interested in a '99 Z3 M Coupe send me a personal message woodym3@<hidden>. I know of two nice ones for sale - one silver, one black.

RED//MSHOE
02-03-2007, 02:35 PM
Jim,
If you (or anyone else) is interested in a '99 Z3 M Coupe send me a personal message woodym3@<hidden>. I know of two nice ones for sale - one silver, one black.

Thank God you didn't say an Estoril Blue one...

Pete
02-12-2007, 03:51 PM
So did anyone go to the meeting? Obviously online member comment was ignored.

Sorry, for the long delay but I have been very busy with work and other issues. At the moment I haven't finished the classing language but hope to have the draft done by this week.

As for the sarcastic comment that online member comment was ignored, that is incorrect, the people who showed up to the meeting and discussed the topics at length and consensus was made.

Your position was discussed. I'm sorry you feel that you where ignored but sarcasm is not needed in this situation. If you feel strongly about a certain issue, feel free to see the volunteers needed thread as we will need more manpower to run this (autocross) and other programs.

Pete

JST
02-13-2007, 09:31 AM
Sorry, for the long delay but I have been very busy with work and other issues. At the moment I haven't finished the classing language but hope to have the draft done by this week.

As for the sarcastic comment that online member comment was ignored, that is incorrect, the people who showed up to the meeting and discussed the topics at length and consensus was made.

Your position was discussed. I'm sorry you feel that you where ignored but sarcasm is not needed in this situation. If you feel strongly about a certain issue, feel free to see the volunteers needed thread as we will need more manpower to run this (autocross) and other programs.

Pete

I will reserve my comments until the classing language is finalized, though I think it's important to note that of the people who took time to post on this subject (all of whom have pretty substantial experience autocrossing BMWs both with NCC and with SCCA), every single one of them thought that the 335 should be with the "normal" BMWs, rather than the Ms.

Having driven a 335 now for a few weeks, I have to say my conclusion is even more firm on this point. The E90 (and, presumably, the E92) is not going to be a great autocross car. It's big, it's heavy, and it's sightlines are terrible for close-in work; placing this car on the course is going to be a chore. It does have a lot of power, and it puts it down reasonably well for a car with a peg-leg diff, but "nimble" is not the first, second, third, fourth or twelfth word I would use to describe this car. It makes the E46 M3 I used to have seem small.

Perhaps, though, I will be proven wrong. I am very interested to see what the standings look like at the end of the year.

bren
02-13-2007, 12:02 PM
Your position was discussed. I'm sorry you feel that you where ignored but sarcasm is not needed in this situation. If you feel strongly about a certain issue, feel free to see the volunteers needed thread as we will need more manpower to run this (autocross) and other programs.

Pete

Believe it or not, I am trying to be helpful. I wasn't going for sarcasm....just an observation.

I am genuinely interested in the meeting. How many people were present? Did anyone keep the minutes? I still haven't heard comments from anyone regarding the changes (I'm speaking of more than just the 335 issue.)

Re the 335 - Like I posted earlier, there is nothing wrong with "class them and see." Maybe I'll put the m3 back to stock just to prove my point ;)

woodym3
02-13-2007, 03:35 PM
I am genuinely interested in the meeting. How many people were present? Did anyone keep the minutes? I still haven't heard comments from anyone regarding the changes (I'm speaking of more than just the 335 issue.)

Re the 335 - Like I posted earlier, there is nothing wrong with "class them and see." Maybe I'll put the m3 back to stock just to prove my point ;)
Bren,
This is not a democratic organization. I think we've always allowed the autocross organizer(s) to set the rules, whether they are popular or not.

Incidently, shortly after I joined the chapter in 1982 we re-established an autocross program. We used two classes - stock and modified. As the cars ranged in hp from about 100 to 170, it worked well for a number of years.

John V
02-21-2007, 01:41 PM
Wow, the 335 follows the E46 M3? That's insane.

I think I'm gonna go petition the SCCA to let the E46 M3 into F Stock. :)

JST
02-22-2007, 02:11 PM
Wow, the 335 follows the E46 M3? That's insane.

I think I'm gonna go petition the SCCA to let the E46 M3 into F Stock. :)

Hey, I've always said that the E46 M3 is the best Mustang GT Ford never built.

If I am able to finish first in Prepared Super Sport in my 335 in any event, I will buy Pete a six-pack of his favorite beer. Note--doesn't count if I am the only one in the class.

hoyabmw
02-23-2007, 04:50 PM
Hey, I've always said that the E46 M3 is the best Mustang GT Ford never built.

If I am able to finish first in Prepared Super Sport in my 335 in any event, I will buy Pete a six-pack of his favorite beer. Note--doesn't count if I am the only one in the class.

Pete only drinks water (Miller Lite). Don't waste your money anyway :)

woodym3
02-24-2007, 10:28 AM
I understand lite beer is for those who don't like beer.

John V
02-26-2007, 12:51 PM
I'm still confused about the 335 being put with the M cars. Can someone please explain the rationale?

woodym3
02-26-2007, 03:18 PM
Pete laid out this thoughts in post #9 and I guess none of us could get him to change his mind.

John V
02-27-2007, 08:01 AM
The best car for "Showroom" is the Z4 3.0i / 3.0si. One of those would absolutely annihilate a "Showroom" 335i. Hell, it's a better autocross car than an E36 M3 and probably better than an E46 M3 on our courses. The 335 should be in "Showroom."

Maybe once you move to "modified" the 335i would have a shot. But even in "Prepared" it's going to get smoked by a Z4.

woodym3
02-27-2007, 06:43 PM
John, do you mean "Sport" instead of "Showroom"? All BMWs are covered by Showroom. Showroom A for M cars and 335, Showroom B for all other BMWs.

Modifications move all cars to the Prepared, Modified or Unlimited categories.
All of this according to Pete, of course.

I too would like to see some well driven Z4s show up.

RED//MSHOE
02-27-2007, 09:28 PM
GEEEZZZZ!

Can we all just start racing already!!!


Drive/trailer your car to the event, run the piss out of it, have fun, then go home and drink your face off!


Sounds like a bunch of old ladies.




OK, off my soapbox, and to the fridge for another beer. :)

John V
02-28-2007, 08:38 AM
John, do you mean "Sport" instead of "Showroom"? All BMWs are covered by Showroom. Showroom A for M cars and 335, Showroom B for all other BMWs.

Modifications move all cars to the Prepared, Modified or Unlimited categories.
All of this according to Pete, of course.

I too would like to see some well driven Z4s show up.

Woody: no, I mean "Showroom."

The 335 was put into "Showroom M." I find this strange, because the Z4 3.0 / 3.0si is in "Showroom" and the Z4 is, by far, the faster car around an autocross course.

The 335i follows the E46 M3, which means it progresses into Prepared Super Sport (The Z4 goes to Prepared Sport) and Modified Super Sport (The Z4 goes to Modified Sport).

It makes no sense.

AlfaEric
02-28-2007, 02:14 PM
GEEEZZZZ!

Can we all just start racing already!!!


Drive/trailer your car to the event, run the piss out of it, have fun, then go home and drink your face off!


Sounds like a bunch of old ladies.




OK, off my soapbox, and to the fridge for another beer. :)

+1

---Eric

John V
03-02-2007, 11:02 AM
+1

---Eric

There's no drama here. I just want to seriously understand the reasoning by which a 335 is classed UP from a Z4.

bren
03-02-2007, 07:53 PM
There's no drama here. I just want to seriously understand the reasoning by which a 335 is classed UP from a Z4.

TurBozZzzzzZzzzzzssszz