PDA

View Full Version : Rules Changes for 05



Pinecone
09-19-2004, 05:12 AM
I figured I would throw this out now to start discussion. A couple of rules changes for next year (more like rules tweaks).

1) Allow any shock in Stock class with the exception of remote resevoir or more than 2 adjustments. The reason I propose this is that there little gains by going with an adjustable shock versus a Bilstein. aAnd considering you can get custom valved Bilsteins, someone who really wants to play hard will spend a LOT more than a set of Konis. I would accept reducing it to single adjustable only, but don't see that much of a difference.

2) Allow stock sized rims on street tired Prepared class cars. Currently the rules allow ST prepared cars to run street tires in Prepared class. The problem is ST allows a 7 inch rim and 225 section tires. Most SS class cars have larger rims and tires from the factory.

The ST class rules allow most of the mods used in an SP car other than the rim size and R-comps.

For example, Sept 12, I ran street tires on my LTW (long story). Due to the rules I had to run SSM due to the stock 7.5" fronts, 8.5" rears. On the other hand several people in SSP were running stock 7.5/8.5 or even 8/9 rims, with as large of R-comps they could fit.

I think the option to run a M car on street tires with stock rims sizes should be allowed to run P if desired. Of course the individual must take into account the series poins if they are running the entire series when doing so.

Just a coouple of thoughts to get things started early. :)

John V
09-20-2004, 10:07 AM
Wheels are already "free" in Prepared. Yes, it's stock class rules OR ST class rules, but there is a proviso that wheels are "free."

Showroom class is showroom class, you can't change anything.

John

GT
09-20-2004, 10:57 AM
What I think needs to be addressed is the "Modified" class - it covers too broad a range of cars.

SCCA Street Prepared cars are outgunned by SCCA Prepared & Mod class cars, yet these cars are grouped together in CCA events.

John V
09-21-2004, 06:32 AM
We discussed this last year. Here are my thoughts.

If we split the modified class into two classes, participation in at least one of the classes would suffer. For instance: We could have modified and super modified. Modified would be Street Prepared rules. Super modified would be for prepared and modified (incl. street modified) class rules - ones with gutted interiors, significant lightening, power adders, etc.

How many cars would be in Super modified? Not many... Doby's, Bud and Austin's plus Neil's. I dunno. Makes more sense to me to have those cars in Modified. You guys are always pretty close to one another.

Now, having wheels be free in Prepared makes no sense to me... wider wheels with R-comps are going to make more of a difference than shocks, exhaust, software (all the other stuff allowed in Prepared). Prepared should be SCCA Stock or SCCA SP rules with no wheel/tire width restriction. Either you do all the suspension stuff, wheels, etc, or you do shocks, front bar and r-comps. That's it.

John


Anyway

Doby
09-21-2004, 07:25 AM
All of the questions here were discussed at the classing meeting prior to the start of the season. Not everyone will be happy with all of the classes, but these rules make the majority happy. And as far as someone spending money on larger wheels for NCC events only... no comment needed.

The Mod cars (me, Neil, and the Father-Son kunfo duo) are the only ones that would be in an "unlimited" class and that was discussed too. Neil doesn't make every event, and I missed 2 this year. The blue car will be set-up for the track and won't be the best autox car anyway eventually. There just isn't enough cars/participation to have a class like that.

The non-adjustable shock rule (which I wasn't in agreement with) probably needs to be changed to allow Koni SA's, but we'll see how that goes after the season.

This classing structure is totally new, and tweaks will need to be made, and that was known. The people in charge will try to make things as fair as possible. And short of paying people not to show up, there will always be ringers in every class. (Johnny 5, Bill "Ama be out here" Brochu, Mr Ty, Kevin "Mr suspension patience" Henry, James "Wide Track" Sheridan, THE WONGer, Bud "I do it sideways" Schreiber, Mark "Big C5" Rebano, etc)

Rafgar
09-21-2004, 04:40 PM
I'm in total agreement with Doby. Most of these issues were discussed when the rules changes were being finalized. We can't make everyone happy, but we try to make the vast majority happy. These are new rules and we expect that there will be changes.

I'm very glad to see discussion started early and in an open forum.

Let's keep doing this and we'll probably have some kind of informal meeting (like we did earlier this year) were we invite people to gather and have another discussion of the rules.

Something to keep in mind. Look at how close some of the class comptitions are running. Also look at the times people are turning in (very close).

There has been (and continues to be) a lot of support for the "stock is stock" class. If we let in single adjustable shocks, why not let in plus-1 wheels, or the cold air intake? It's a tough call.

Pinecone
09-22-2004, 02:09 AM
a) I suggested allowing wider wheels with STREET TIRES ONLY in Prepared class. As it is, I can't run stock wheels on an M3 with street tires and ST mods. I agree that R-comps should be run on stock wheels as per SCCA Stock Class rules. But allow at least STOCK wheel widths and tires for "ST Class" STREET TIRED vehicles.

The current rules say "Any wheels" but it also states the cars must be either SCCA Stock (with R-comps) or SCCA ST (with street tires) legal, which limits the cars to 7 inch wheels and 225 section tires in ST. So virtually all SS cars cannot run as "ST" cars with stock wheels.

b) Showroom already allows aftermarket shocks, but not Konis since they are adjustable. Since I could instead, spend a LOT more money on custom valved Bilsteins and stay in Showroom, I don't think that makes sense. It also penalizes someone new who put new shocks on their car and picked Konis and now has to run Prepared. I don't see where single adjustable Konis offer a significant performance advantage over Bilstein HD shocks in an otherwise Stock car. Since I don't run this clas, I don't care, I was just offering my thoughts.

c) As for this having been discussed last year, fine, but after a year of running, it is time to start thinking of where we go from here.

d) As for a Super Modified, until there are a number of cars doing this, I don't care if they run in M where I normally run. But if enough people don't like this, there could either be a SINGLE SM class (sort of like BMW CCA Club Racing) or they could run in X class and compete against others in their SCCA classing.

Doby
09-22-2004, 07:11 AM
a) I suggested allowing wider wheels with STREET TIRES ONLY in Prepared class. As it is, I can't run stock wheels on an M3 with street tires and ST mods. I agree that R-comps should be run on stock wheels as per SCCA Stock Class rules. But allow at least STOCK wheel widths and tires for "ST Class" STREET TIRED vehicles.

The current rules say "Any wheels" but it also states the cars must be either SCCA Stock (with R-comps) or SCCA ST (with street tires) legal, which limits the cars to 7 inch wheels and 225 section tires in ST. So virtually all SS cars cannot run as "ST" cars with stock wheels.

I think the spirit of the rule was to allow the different wheels, but it was easier to use the SCCA rules to clarify things. I’m sure this can be adjusted to allow big rimzzz as well.



b) Showroom already allows aftermarket shocks, but not Konis since they are adjustable. Since I could instead, spend a LOT more money on custom valved Bilsteins and stay in Showroom, I don't think that makes sense. It also penalizes someone new who put new shocks on their car and picked Konis and now has to run Prepared. I don't see where single adjustable Konis offer a significant performance advantage over Bilstein HD shocks in an otherwise Stock car. Since I don't run this clas, I don't care, I was just offering my thoughts.

I agree with you on the SA’s but who is their right mind is going to have their bilsteins custom valved for NCC autoxes? If someone does, then more power to them. And as far as not caring… you made the point about the rule. Relax it’s NCC autox and the rules will be tweaked before next year.



c) As for this having been discussed last year, fine, but after a year of running, it is time to start thinking of where we go from here.


Yes, as soon as the season is actually over, the rules tweaking will have to be started. It’s good to have an open discussion about them, and I’m sure we’ll have another meeting. It’s funny that a lot of people are complaining about the rules, but we they were invited to be a part of the rule making process, they didn’t show up. I went to the meeting so I could complain because I was there.



d) As for a Super Modified, until there are a number of cars doing this, I don't care if they run in M where I normally run. But if enough people don't like this, there could either be a SINGLE SM class (sort of like BMW CCA Club Racing) or they could run in X class and compete against others in their SCCA classing.

Not going to happen until there are enough cars to warrant a class like this.


NCC Autocross is all about having fun and learning more about your car. When people start trying to protest things and rules get so tight that it’s hard to class cars, then the gracious volunteers that run the show start to think twice about giving up a lot of their free time to put on the show. There will be little tweaks to the rules and there will be a lot of things different next year… hopefully everything will be as good… if not better then right now. Enjoy the ride…

FT
09-22-2004, 08:00 AM
Well I'll add my issue here as well, since I could not voice my concerns last year as I had to miss the meeting.

It is incomprehensible to me and takes away from my enthusiasm about the club when all non-BMW cars are thrown into X or XR classes and with a policy that does not award a trophy for neither.

I do not buy the argument that "this is a BMW club." It is NOT. Last time I check our charter and mission it was still considered "BMW Owner's Club." As a BMW owner I prefer to autocross with my other non-Bimmer for what ever reasons. This should not preclude that I cannot compete against/with other enthusiasts whom I been friends with for the last two years. This is an autocross program and should be inclusive if it is to fulfill its mission of offering safe environment that promotes better driving skills in a competitive environment. I remember Raf preaching to this couple of time in db and other venues; that has to be turned into action.

The interest levels are steadily increasing for area autocrosses and the autocross program is one of the few programs that sustains itself financially. I do not see any reason to alieniate the non-Bimmer drivers with these policies.

I also urge you to consider my thoughts as a collective voice of non-BMW drivers as I have had countless conversations personally and over the e-mail on this regard.

I do understand that we have no obligations to accommodate non-members; however, as long as our membership policy allows for non-BMW owners to become club members, we have an obligation to accomodate the members; and I am one of them.

Sincerely,

Doby
09-22-2004, 08:12 AM
Fatih, come up with a classing structure that is easy to use and propose it.

There were 34 non-bmw's at the last NCC BMW CCA event, which was the most this year, but as little as 22 at other events.

I thought of using a displacement type of classing structure like they use in BMWCCA Club racing and anything F/I'd is multiplied by 1.5 (IIRC). But there are really not enough cars to make a true classing structure with only a possible of 22 showing up.

The other thing is that it really is a BMW owner's club... but how many of the non-bmw's are actual club memebers? PCA does the same thing and doesn't even have the r-comp class. I proposed that idea at the meeting to try to help the non-bmw's out, but it seems that only a few are listed in that class.

Pinecone
09-22-2004, 02:02 PM
I was figuring on starting the discussion early. :)

As for attending the meeting, I would have been glad to do so, if I had been in the country. I did put my few cents in with Woody when he asked for input middle of last year. Best I could do within my travel schedule and the groups meeting schedule.

Give a LOT more notice and I can adjust to make it, but most times within a month or so, I am already setup for travel and can't easily change.

As to my comments, I agree, the rim size change is a pretty easy one by just allowing stock sized wheels on cars with ST mods and street tires in Prepared.

As for the Stock class, yes, someone would be crazy to do so, but it can be done and still be legal, but someone with SA Konis that were installed as they came out of the box are not. Just never made sense to me.

WRT Super Modified, I agree, not enough to worry about, but figured I would throw out my thoughts.

As for X class, how many different SCCA classes were covered by those 34 cars in X? You end up with a lot of extra classes with 1 or 2 cars per class. And if you give trophies, a LOT more club money.

Maybe, and this will not really solve the problem of being competitive, would be to divide X to X Showroom, Prepared, and Mod like the BMW classes. But still some BIG performance differences in each class.

Not an easy one to deal with. But if I run with the PCA at Ripken, I know I am running for my practice and fun pretty much only.

Doby
09-22-2004, 02:06 PM
Until someone presents a classing structure for non-bmw's that is easy to use and enforce, I do not see the NCC to adopt one.

FT
09-22-2004, 02:39 PM
I at least have a suggested classing for X cars that will not put further burden on administration, but allow BMW/non-BMW competition. I will write it when I get a chance. IMHO, it is not a difficult issue to resolve.

Jed
09-22-2004, 02:42 PM
Terry-

I see your point in terms of having an SM Vette run against a stock Focus, but I just see the CCA events as a marque specific club function with guests-main focus being on bimmers. It's not as competitive as, say, an SCCA event-it tends to be more on learning and having fun.

Pinecone
09-23-2004, 12:26 AM
Terry-

I see your point in terms of having an SM Vette run against a stock Focus, but I just see the CCA events as a marque specific club function with guests-main focus being on bimmers. It's not as competitive as, say, an SCCA event-it tends to be more on learning and having fun.

Agree. And even with breaking X up into the 3 club prep levels will have a Stock Focus running against a Stock Z06.:)

Not an easy thing to deal with overall, unless we just go to SCCA classing, which defeats the whole margue club thing.

I agree in that I see no reason to make additional measures for non-BMW cars. If you run your non-BMW at club events, you know the rules and live with them.

Even though I propose various rules changes, I run the runs as they are.

If someone can come up with a non-burdensome way to dealing with X cars, I still have an open mind.

woodym3
09-23-2004, 07:29 AM
a) I suggested allowing wider wheels with STREET TIRES ONLY in Prepared class. As it is, I can't run stock wheels on an M3 with street tires and ST mods. I agree that R-comps should be run on stock wheels as per SCCA Stock Class rules. But allow at least STOCK wheel widths and tires for "ST Class" STREET TIRED vehicles.


The current rules say "Any wheels" but it also states the cars must be either SCCA Stock (with R-comps) or SCCA ST (with street tires) legal, which limits the cars to 7 inch wheels and 225 section tires in ST. So virtually all SS cars cannot run as "ST" cars with stock wheels.

Terry,
I wish Kevin would step in here, but I don't think the rules intend for M3s or any car to be limited to less than OE wheel size. Saying our Prepared class is limited to mods allowed in the SCCA's ST class was not intended to include the 7" wide wheels. Of course, this is just my opinion. Who at the autocross told you your car had to be considered Modified?
Woody

John V
09-23-2004, 07:44 AM
Terry, I see your complaint now. The rule for prepared reads:

"Or, if it is has no more than the following mods, it can run here using R-Compounds: Any wheels..."

but no such allowance is made for cars running street tires. Stupid. That should be changed.

If it will make life any easier, I officially forfeit all my trophies for this year and will give them to the X and XR class drivers. I really don't care.

I have given thought to having a more inclusive non-BMW class structure. I personally am fine with it but it is going to be difficult to make everyone happy. We cannot and will not have individual SCCA classing because classes would frequently be populated by one car. I also am not in favor of eliminating the BMW specific classes or allowing non BMWs into them.

We could, theoretically, have a three or four tiered system. Fast cars on R-comps (FCR), slow cars on R-comps (SCR), Fast cars on street tires (FCS) and slow cars on street tires (SCS), and make these classes inclusive of any mods. So the 'vettes, STis, S2000s, Purple Camaros on R-comps would be in the FCR class. The civics, focuses (Foci?) would be in SCS... etc. I seriously, seriously doubt anyone is going to build a car to dominate at our NCC autocrosses... ;)

John

hoyabmw
09-23-2004, 10:46 AM
I just got informed of the discussion going on here (way too much other stuff going on for me to keep up with everything!)

The Prepared class rules were intended to allow stock wheels on ST prep cars (ignoring that provision of the ST rules--If you can't tell, I haven't REALLY read thru them since I run DSP.)

Showroom's intent was that you could replace stock shocks with aftermarket equivalents due to them wearing out. It's a fact of life of driving cars, and there is no reason to force people to stick with the stock Boge for replacement just to get into the stock class. The same could be said of brakes and tires--Azenis are allowed since they're streets, but they are arguably just barely not R comps. Any brake pad is allowed, the belief being that when replacing pads, most people get fed up with the dusting and get something non stock--this could allow race pads if someone chose. If someone skirts the rules and starts running full custom bilsteins, then we can deal with it. It's a tradeoff to try to get new blood into the sport without them feeling that they have to spend a bunch of money.

X class...we split it, and noone seems to be really registering in the XR class. I'm not at home to be able to check the computers, but the last event was the first where there was more than 1 car in XR. If there appears to be a GOOD way to break X up better (into no more than 3 groups due to participation levels), I would be willing to hear it.

The classes were restructured this year with the intent of trying to get relatively similar cars running together, and get the class attendance balanced. Last year there were 2 classes that never had more than 3 attendees. This year all the classes seem to have relatively even participation levels.

From what people are saying, it really sounds like the only solution is a points structure like Golden Gate uses (and they still only have 2 X classes!) I don't want to do this because the administration is a NIGHTMARE! Every car has to have a base point value, and every mod as well (if you look at GGC, the mods have different values based on the car!)

I do have a slightly clarified rules document, I just haven't had a chance to get it finalized and posted. It would clear up some of the questions about wheels, etc.

I'm glad to see the discussions, and I'm sure tweaks will have to be made. I don't like the idea that I have to run against Sheridan, but I have to everywhere I run, so I deal with it.

Kevin

Pinecone
09-23-2004, 01:19 PM
Terry,
I wish Kevin would step in here, but I don't think the rules intend for M3s or any car to be limited to less than OE wheel size. Saying our Prepared class is limited to mods allowed in the SCCA's ST class was not intended to include the 7" wide wheels. Of course, this is just my opinion. Who at the autocross told you your car had to be considered Modified?
Woody[/quote]

Nobody told me, I just read the rules and they say no more than ST mods, which limit the wheels to 7". If that is not the intent, then they should say it.

This is like the Stock class SCCA deal we talked about before the season. The original text of the rules forced Stock class cars with a frront sway bar change all the way to Mod. That got changed.

BTW if the intent to allow M3s stock wheels with street tires and ST suspension mods can I reclassify myself for the last event? :)

Difference between 7th and 4th. SSM to SSP. :)

Pinecone
09-23-2004, 01:23 PM
I just got informed of the discussion going on here (way too much other stuff going on for me to keep up with everything!)

The Prepared class rules were intended to allow stock wheels on ST prep cars (ignoring that provision of the ST rules--If you can't tell, I haven't REALLY read thru them since I run DSP.)

Showroom's intent was that you could replace stock shocks with aftermarket equivalents due to them wearing out. It's a fact of life of driving cars, and there is no reason to force people to stick with the stock Boge for replacement just to get into the stock class. The same could be said of brakes and tires--Azenis are allowed since they're streets, but they are arguably just barely not R comps. Any brake pad is allowed, the belief being that when replacing pads, most people get fed up with the dusting and get something non stock--this could allow race pads if someone chose. If someone skirts the rules and starts running full custom bilsteins, then we can deal with it. It's a tradeoff to try to get new blood into the sport without them feeling that they have to spend a bunch of money.

X class...we split it, and noone seems to be really registering in the XR class. I'm not at home to be able to check the computers, but the last event was the first where there was more than 1 car in XR. If there appears to be a GOOD way to break X up better (into no more than 3 groups due to participation levels), I would be willing to hear it.

The classes were restructured this year with the intent of trying to get relatively similar cars running together, and get the class attendance balanced. Last year there were 2 classes that never had more than 3 attendees. This year all the classes seem to have relatively even participation levels.

From what people are saying, it really sounds like the only solution is a points structure like Golden Gate uses (and they still only have 2 X classes!) I don't want to do this because the administration is a NIGHTMARE! Every car has to have a base point value, and every mod as well (if you look at GGC, the mods have different values based on the car!)

I do have a slightly clarified rules document, I just haven't had a chance to get it finalized and posted. It would clear up some of the questions about wheels, etc.

I'm glad to see the discussions, and I'm sure tweaks will have to be made. I don't like the idea that I have to run against Sheridan, but I have to everywhere I run, so I deal with it.

Kevin

Cool, so a simple clarification will take care of the Prepared class deal. Works for me. :) A little too late for last event though. :)

The thing that still bothers me is that basic SA Konis are normally considered a replacement shock. It just seems to me that they offer no real performance difference and should not be excluded from stock.

X I leave to the "experts" :)

Pinecone
09-23-2004, 01:24 PM
Terry, I see your complaint now. The rule for prepared reads:

"Or, if it is has no more than the following mods, it can run here using R-Compounds: Any wheels..."

but no such allowance is made for cars running street tires. Stupid. That should be changed.

John

Thanks for the support. At least the last event I can say you beat me because you were running Ho-hos and I was running Kumho 712s. :)

Maybe I will keep running that way, less excuses for why a SCCA Stcok class car beats my BSP car on similar tires. :)

FT
09-23-2004, 01:39 PM
The only way I can see being "inclusive" of X cars and not make it an administrative nightmare is to include them into existing classes with the mix of BMWs. Since there aren't many X cars currently, IMHO, that should not be much of a problem.

For example:

- Super Sport: Includes all M cars, except M6. Hence, let's include all AS and BS non-Bimmers into Super Sport

- Sport: include regular E30, E36, E46, E28, E34, etc.; so let's include DS, ES, FS classes into Sport.

Same thing with Touring, what ever the SCCA classes correspond to those BMWs. If an non-Bimmer does not fall into any of those classes, then they'll fall under X and XR.

Then within the same rules, let's apply Prepared and Modified classes to X cars that have modifications.

To me this makes a lot of sense, no additional classes introduced, more cars in each class, more members served... but obviously I am seem to be quite alone on the BMW camp supporting a mix :)

Doby
09-23-2004, 01:53 PM
So then non-bmw's would be in the same classes as the bmw's in the bmw club and would be taking the bmw club trophies away from the bmw club member's that are driving bmw's in the bmw club autoxes?

Doby
09-23-2004, 01:55 PM
I wanted to drive my wife's car at a couple autoxes and so I signed up for the council events. I still drive my bmw in the NCC autoxes. I don't buy the mixing of makes...

woodym3
09-23-2004, 07:09 PM
[quote="FT"]The only way I can see being "inclusive" of X cars and not make it an administrative nightmare is to include them into existing classes with the mix of BMWs. Since there aren't many X cars currently, IMHO, that should not be much of a problem.

Fatih,
I have to disagree on this. In my opinion the chapter autocrosses are for competition among BMWs. I know some chapter members such as yourself autocross other makes, but I think BMWs should have prioriety on registration until a certain time and hopefully some day the events will be all BMWs (again).

Starting at the beginning of the season our X car participants have been 25, 22, 32, 30, and 34. At the last event there were 40-some X cars pre-registered. I think this is a disturbing trend. I wonder how many BMW drivers are being shut out?

As long as there are X cars competing, don't make it work for the scorers to administer the results. To even out the Focus vs Corvette competition, the obvious answer is using SCCA PAX. But I think that it too much to ask of the scorer(s). And I'll bet some X car drivers at our events don't even know what SCCA class they fit into.

I say if someone wants the seat time available at a BMW event, let them live with the fact they're competing against all manner of cars.

Some people have asked about a class for Minis. We had a whopping 6 at the Aug 28 event, and 4 at the last one. Do you think a stock Mini on its all-season tires will like competing again a modified S with R tires? There is an active Mini club in the area. They don't do autocrosses (yet).
Until then. . . .

I've rambled enough. Time for another Guinness.
Woody

1996 328ti
09-23-2004, 09:47 PM
The only people who might get shut out are non NCC members. NCC members get priority registration no matter what car they bring. We even check membership numbers to ensure our members get first crack.

Pinecone
09-23-2004, 11:32 PM
I agree, putting the X cars into the mix with the BMWs will mean that in some classes the BMWs will suffer. And it IS a BMW club.

As for priority, I think the current system of members first is enough. If plenty of members want to run other than BMWs then so be it.

At the most I would figure a few splits of X, or even Paxing (doesn't the timing/scoring program do that already?)

FT
09-24-2004, 07:22 AM
I have known most of these views for some time, and I know I am on up hill. I will not be making a big push for the X cars to be mixed with BMWs, because at the end, it is not worth it. However, I thought I should at least once try to get something accross: it is a "BMW owner's club", and if you insist on otherwise, please check club documentation on this.

Woody - as Steven has mentioned, we never leave out any club members out of autocrosses; frankly no matter when they send in their registration, even last minute. However, if you want to change that to "BMW drivers" regardless of membership status, that's is different matter.

John V
09-24-2004, 08:00 AM
Fatih, regardless of what the documentation says there is at least a perception (correct or not) that we are a "BMW club." As such the classes are going to be focused on BMW cars and are going to alienate those club members who choose to drive something else at the events.

There really is no fair way to accomodate both schools of thought (WRT having specific BMW classes, or combining the non BMWs in them). If you look at how any of the other BMW club events are run (or Porsche club events, or any other marque-specific events) the classing structure always breaks down the marque's cars into classes that exclude the non-marque cars.

I agree and disagree with Woody. I would love to see more BMWs at our events, but at the same time nobody is being excluded. If we restricted the events to members-only we would have much lower participation. Even folks who walk up to our events are not turned away, at least I do not know of an instance of this happening.

At the same time, we try to promote a very laid back and fun but safe atmosphere for autocrossing and so that attracts non-member participants. I think this is a good thing! If we get to the point that we have to start turning people away, we will have to structure registration so that it is the non-members (not the non-BMW driving members, mind you FT ;) ) that are turned away. That is the focus of the club.

John V

woodym3
09-24-2004, 08:07 AM
Woody - as Steven has mentioned, we never leave out any club members out of autocrosses; frankly no matter when they send in their registration, even last minute. However, if you want to change that to "BMW drivers" regardless of membership status, that's is different matter.[/quote]

Steven and Fatih,
I wasn't talking about non-members shutting out members, I was talking about members with X cars shutting out members with BMWs. I realize it's first come, first serve (for members) and that's probably the way it should be for now. I would just hate to see the day when members with X cars outnumber members with BMWs at our autocrosses. With the difficulty getting in SCCA and Council events, more and more outsiders are realizing they can pay $35 for a BMW club membership and autocross their X car at our events. They have no great love for BMWs and that is fine. They are playing by our current rules. And some will see the light - Eric Wong moving from Corvette to M3 being an example. Fatih, when you say this is a "club for BMW owners", are you saying a driver of an X car should be required to also own a BMW? That is not a requirement for membership (unlike PCA).
Woody

FT
09-24-2004, 08:21 AM
Fatih, when you say this is a "club for BMW owners", are you saying a driver of an X car should be required to also own a BMW? That is not a requirement for membership (unlike PCA).
Woody

I am proud of our club for the fact that we do not require BMW ownership for membership, and I do hope that never changes.

However, on the same line of thought, we have to apply the same principle to the individual programs we support, autocross is one of them. There should not be a gray area or "perception," We either draw the line and say you have to have a BMW to become a member, or you can become a member no matter what car you own and you will have the exact same priviledges as any other member. It just cannot be both ways IMO.

We are supposed to promote BMW ownership, I don't agree that forcing X cars to their own littel insignificant class is the way to do it; we should be doing the opposite. I believe our current policies are viewed as double standard. "Please pay the same fee for membership as BMW owners, but you will be classed in a lower bracket in the membership totem pole; that's just the way it is." And think of the Mini drivers, X class for Minis??? That is even worse than trying to get my WRX into MSS.

bren
09-24-2004, 09:04 AM
FT, I understand where you are coming from but I think for you an autox is more about the competition and less about having fun and learning what your car can do.....as such I think maybe you have just outgrown the principle of the NCC autox's.

John V
09-24-2004, 09:56 AM
I guess that's what it comes down to. Are we going to these events because we want a piece of hardware or because we want to have fun?

That said, FT, I don't see any reason why your car should have a problem winning the X class every event, so I don't think the class needs to be restructured. Is the problem that there is no X-class hardware? If so, I was dead serious about giving you my hardware every time you win X class. I really could care less about it and having a condo I have no place to put any of it anyway!

John

FT
09-24-2004, 10:28 AM
I guess that's what it comes down to. Are we going to these events because we want a piece of hardware or because we want to have fun?

That said, FT, I don't see any reason why your car should have a problem winning the X class every event, so I don't think the class needs to be restructured. Is the problem that there is no X-class hardware? If so, I was dead serious about giving you my hardware every time you win X class. I really could care less about it and having a condo I have no place to put any of it anyway!

John
I cannot believe this what you and Bren gather from my messages.

John V
09-24-2004, 10:44 AM
FT, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not accusing you of only wanting a piece of hardware. I was asking the question generally.

All I am saying is this: You are in a unique circumstance of owning a BMW, being a member of the club, and yet choosing to not autocross your BMW. I don't think there is anyone else in that situation right now. If you don't care about the hardware and all you want is to compete directly with the other cars in your SCCA class, well, you can do that! The times for all of us are listed in the results, so you can directly compare how you're doing relative to Doby, Jack, Eric, Sean, Glenn, Tyler...

Look at it this way. If all of us owned corvettes and chose to autocross our corvettes at the autocross, would we expect the club to accomodate a class that is only corvettes? That just doesn't make much sense to me. Actually, with the direction that BMW is taking their cars, it would not surprise me if we all moved to Corvettes in the future... :cry:

I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you want. :?:

woodym3
09-24-2004, 10:53 AM
[quote="FT"][
However, on the same line of thought, we have to apply the same principle to the individual programs we support, autocross is one of them. There should not be a gray area or "perception," We either draw the line and say you have to have a BMW to become a member, or you can become a member no matter what car you own and you will have the exact same priviledges as any other member. It just cannot be both ways IMO.

Fatih,
At one time we only allowed BMWs in our driver schools. The chapter president wanted to drive his 944 at one event instead of his 5-series, but was not allowed to do so. Things are better now.

Some members don't understand why they can't drive their SUV or convertible in a driver school, figuring they paid the same dues as any other member. They don't want to hear it's a safety issue because XYZ car club allows them.

Not that it has anything to do with our policies, but I don't know of any other chapter that has more than a single X class for non-BMWs, although some now have a Mini class or mix Minis with BMWs.
Woody

bren
09-24-2004, 11:03 AM
All I am saying is this: You are in a unique circumstance of owning a BMW, being a member of the club, and yet choosing to not autocross your BMW. I don't think there is anyone else in that situation right now.
Don't forget Clyde, er Jeremy, uh Cliff...whatever you call him these days :)

Pinecone
09-24-2004, 12:56 PM
All I am saying is this: You are in a unique circumstance of owning a BMW, being a member of the club, and yet choosing to not autocross your BMW. I don't think there is anyone else in that situation right now.
Don't forget Clyde, er Jeremy, uh Cliff...whatever you call him these days :)

The RX-8 guy, that will work. :)

I agree with most posters, that this a BWM club event, and primarily for BMWs, and that we allow people to run whatever they want, within the structure of the rules.

After some thought, the only thing I can see doing is charge more and do double trophying, NNC classes and SCCA classes, and only give a trophy based on x participation in a class. But all that gives is hardware, and we all know what everyone really suns for is bragging rights. :)

Doby
09-24-2004, 02:23 PM
I think the bottom line is that unless an extremely simple plan is come up with to break up the X class(es) into more classes AND keep them seperate from the BMW classes, there will be nothing changed regarding that.

I guess I'm still confused here as they why more classes are needed. We run in the PCA autoxes in a "Non-Porsche" class. I've never felt the need to complain about it... it's a Porsche club and it's not the SCCA or BMWCCA. Why are they needed?

Hell, we show up at the PCA events and take FTD and top times, and they don't care and seem to love to take our money. I think people should be thankfull that we aren't too good to not want their money. (bad way of putting that - but I think my point is in there somewhere)

clyde
09-27-2004, 01:21 PM
To add my two cents (I really need to check this board more frequently than I have been...)...

In a nutshell, although a little different, my thoughts are pretty similar to Woody's. All contrary justifications considered, it's a BMW club and I believe that it should begin and end there.

I think that all non-BMWs should be grouped together. I'd rather not even see the current distinction made between street and R tires. If that means that I have to compete on street tires in my RX-8 against Fatih's Hoosier shod STi, Mark's Z06 and Alex's 911 no matter what tires they use, so be it. I have no problems with that. I'm not sure that I like what I'm hearing about no trophy for X class this year, though... :sad: :evil: ;)

The one exception I would make is WRT MINIs for two reasons. First, based just on numbers, their turnout seems to warrant a MINI class (maybe even split between S/non-S models). Second, although different, it's still a BMW product. The second reason isn't something that I really a point to arguing because there are as many valid reasons one one side of it as there are the other.

Something that hasn't been addressed in this thread that I think needs some consideration is how the entire local autocrossing scene has developed in the past few years and how it may affect the future. Participation in events hosted by all the local clubs has gone up dramatically. The local SCCA events fill up in minutes. There's still some slack in the Council event registration, but those fill up a lot faster than they did two years ago. As I understand it, for the first time we've actually had to turn away people at one or two NCC events this year.

The SCCA events at FedEx will probably sell a lot more subscriptions for 2005 which will result in even fewer open slots available per event. They are fully saturated and aren't going to be able to absorb many newcomers on a regular basis. At the same time, Rosecroft's future is as unclear as ever. If the facility is sold and/or slots are legalized, and the Council loses the lot, the people that compete there are going to be looking for another place to play as well.

Everything seems to point to further interest in NCC events from the local autocross community, BMW drivers or not, Club members or not. PCA may be able to meet some of that demand if they host events closer to DC than Ripken, but much of it will likley spill over on us.

We need a registration priority system that can deal with it in case demand regularly exceeds capacity next year, and we need it before the start of next season.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see the bumping order go something like this (highest pirority first):

1) Club members driving BMWs
2) Club members driving non-BMWs
3) Non-Club members driving BMWs
4) Non-Club members driving non-BMWs

(and in my perfect world, I would include MINIs in the BMW distinction for registration purposes)

If my doomsday scenario were to come to pass, there's going to be a lot of griping about X class. To that, I would say f'em.

Before making an effort at even considering the non-BMW issues, I'd rather see finer granularity between the BMWs if partipation numbers are high enough to support it. If possible I'd like to see E36 323/325s not having to compete with 328s and E46 323/325s not having to compete with 328/330s (at least in the "Stock" classes) and so forth. In the end, though, classing decisions are always going to screw some people.

Sorry to ramble so long...

clyde
jeremy
cliff
the RX-8 driving guy

Doby
09-27-2004, 01:27 PM
No Mini class because Mini's are not BMW's. So that would mean that Mini's (a non-BMW) would have their own class in the BMW autoxes.

clyde
09-27-2004, 02:18 PM
No Mini class because Mini's are not BMW's. So that would mean that Mini's (a non-BMW) would have their own class in the BMW autoxes.

Like I said:
although different, it's still a BMW product. Also, like I said, there's little point debating it. You fall on one side or the other and both sides have valid arguments.

Doby
09-27-2004, 02:20 PM
mini =/= bmw ask anyone that owns both. It's kinda like a Jaguar club allowing Mustangs in... they use the same engines...

It's a can of worms to give Mini their own class. It wouldn't be hard though.

clyde
09-27-2004, 02:51 PM
mini =/= bmw ask anyone that owns both. It's kinda like a Jaguar club allowing Mustangs in... they use the same engines...

MINI is to BMW =/= Jaguar is to Ford

Not saying that MINIs are more BMW than Jags are Fords, only that it's not an apples to apples comparison.

Take it further and I'm going to have to grow a mustache for the next autocross and then violate your personal space by standing right next to you all day and reaching over you about once every two minutes. :-P

1996 328ti
09-27-2004, 07:02 PM
I own both. I don't care what Mini owners say. A Mini is not a BMW.
I could see taking Minis out of X if there were enough to trophy.
But what is next, a Rolls Royce class?

Brandon
09-27-2004, 08:39 PM
Before making an effort at even considering the non-BMW issues, I'd rather see finer granularity between the BMWs if partipation numbers are high enough to support it. If possible I'd like to see E36 323/325s not having to compete with 328s and E46 323/325s not having to compete with 328/330s (at least in the "Stock" classes) and so forth. In the end, though, classing decisions are always going to screw some people.

I think the BMW classes are actually fairly reasonable. Perhaps my view is clouded since I seem to be competitive in the Showroom class, but I really don't mind running against E36 and E46 cars (I drive an E30 325ic wet noodle.) Simplicity is always good, and adding more classes makes things more complex and results in fewer cars in each class (it's more fun to have a group to compete against, not just 2 or 3 other cars.)

I imagine the issue of the X class would be moot if there were more BMWs participating. I'm actually surprised we have so few (66% or so?) given the growing popularity of autocrossing and the size of the NCC now. Have the number of novices declined?

For the most part, I think the current classes work well. The only issue I really see is the clarification for the Prepared classes, but that ought to be minor. No adjustable shocks in Showroom.

clyde
09-27-2004, 09:25 PM
But what is next, a Rolls Royce class?

Anyone that autocrosses a Rolls deserves a trophy in my book. ;)

Pinecone
09-27-2004, 11:42 PM
The other thing (my only comment on this), Minis are only sold at BMW dealers, yes they have separate showrooms and such, but they all have a BMW dealership, normally next door. The same isn't true of any other compnaion make.

WRT a Rolls class, ABSOLUTELY. If anyone brings one to run, they desire to win their class. :)

I like Clyde's bump priority. Covers all the bases.

Slightly OT, can you "sell" a subscription slot if you are goin gto miss an event? :)

Doby
09-28-2004, 05:50 AM
Brandon, Koni SA's are cheaper then Bilstein's and the rebound adjustment doesn't do that much. They should be allowed in Showroom.

There could be a mid-90's Rover class too. :)

So 2 rules that need to be discussed at the meeting are:
1. Different size wheels in Prepared
2. Single Adjustable shocks in Showroom.
3. Making the X class one again or not.

John V
09-28-2004, 06:26 AM
Brandon, Koni SA's are cheaper then Bilstein's and the rebound adjustment doesn't do that much.

I would disagree with that statement, but that's just me.

WRT the Mini situation, I see it as a BMW product (there are roundels all over the parts on that thing) whether it is in content or not. My perception, take it for what it's worth. It seems like the Minis could be worked into the existing structure pretty easily, given that the BMWs in those classes compete against them in the SCCA. All the Minis are moving to D Stock next year, and most of the "NCC Sport" class BMWs are in D stock anyway. :-? We could put the non-S minis in "Touring" like where the 318 compact is. What's the big deal with integrating them? It doesn't make sense to have a dedicated Mini class when there are maybe 3 or 4 at each event...

John

Doby
09-28-2004, 08:49 AM
I would disagree with that statement, but that's just me.

Not for the majority... and the idea is that when the stock suspension goes south, the people aren't going to replace the stock stuff with stock stuff. Koni's ride nicer and are cheaper (IIRC) then the Bilsteins. For those people, the SA's are not going to have any advantage over the Bilstein's, and one could argue that the higher pressured Bilstein's would be a better shock. So for stock class, that would make sense. To me, the only people that would benefit from the SA's are those that are running in SCCA stock class that already have a front sway bar which puts them into Prepared Class anyway.

Rafgar
09-28-2004, 02:51 PM
My personal opinions:

1. The BMW Club is for BMW enthusiasts (not necessarily BMW owners).

2. Registration priority should go to CCA members (regardless of what they are driving). Make a bigger financial distinction between members and non-members to encourage membership, but once someone is a member, you shouldn't "discriminate" on the basis of what they own or choose to drive at any particular event. Note, as Woody mentioned, there are overriding safety issues with certain types of vehicles participating in certain events (the convertible and SUV at driving school issues) that are not related to "classing" issues.

3. MINIs are BMW products. I'm not saying that they are the same as a BMW, but they are only sold through BMW affiliated stores. For our autox purposes, MINIs should be included in the BMW class structure. They should NOT get their own class any more than E36 M3s should get their own class.

4. X-Class should remain separate, and we should not have a complicated classing structure. I like the current system of those on "R" compound tires and those on street tires. I understand FT's point, but I disagree that there is a double standard being applied. If you're a member, you're welcome to participate. If you choose to bring an "other" car, then it should be classed accordingly. I don't think it appropriate for a BMW event to have BMWs competing directly against non-BMWs.

5. I'm not sure where the rumour about no trophy started, but I'm expecting there to be trophies for both X-classes (assuming that the winners meet the participation rules).

6. As I said before, I think it's great that we are starting discussion of the 2005 classing this early and I'm very happy to see the level of interest in the autox program.

FT
09-28-2004, 03:06 PM
One last post from me on this, I think it went on enough and opinions have been expressed and conversation also needs to focus on other classing issues:

Raf, I think you understand the fundamental issue I am trying voice, but I also think that your #2 and #4 items are conflicting.

My point was that, as you put it, we should not discriminate members based on their choice of vehicle. How ever, putting all non-BMWs in to X/XR is exactly that.

I am not after a trophy, I couldn't care less about it. However, to have fun means competition to me; not fierce, but friendly competition. I want to be able to compete with friends, collect points and see how we do against one another at the end of the season. I believe that is part of the NCC autox spirit. Currently I am not allowed to have my fun. I am stuck in XR that last time I was at an event, I was the only one running.

Part of the competition fun is, some call it bragging rights, seeing how you fair against others. Comparing straight times has no meaning, unless you compete for seasonal points. If any one thinks that I am the only one thinking this way, I can tell you there are more people; however, we are in the minority for sure.

At the same time, I agree with Woody that as BMW moves further away from performance into luxury, we will see more non-BMWs at track and autox events. However, that is not our problem to solve, but as a club we can provide feedback BMW NA and continue preaching BMW ownership.

Thank you all for at least considering my thoughts.

hoyabmw
09-28-2004, 04:16 PM
Fatih and others,

X class was broken into two groups along the easiest lines for us to manage. Last year it was requested that X be broken up. I think there are probably more people who SHOULD be running in XR, but are running in X. I am fairly certain that some people have figured out they were in the wrong classes. It's a question that should be asked at registration to ensure people are in the right class.

I don't think that non-BMWs should be grouped in with the BMWs. The only logical way to do that is to use SCCA classings, and I don't think SCCA gives BMWs a fair shake in where it places them. The day a 535 should be competing against a STi (our present 535 driver withstanding) is the day it's not really a 5 series anymore.

As for Minis, last year I thought about classing them. But with our former level of participation from Mini owners, we didn't really see the need. I now believe that for next year, the Cooper S should be in Sport, and we'll see on the Cooper. Rumor is that SCCA is going to move all of them into DS (instead of GS/HS.)

In the past, there have been first place season trophies for X class, which likely will continue.

Kevin

John V
09-28-2004, 05:08 PM
I am not after a trophy, I couldn't care less about it. However, to have fun means competition to me; not fierce, but friendly competition. I want to be able to compete with friends, collect points and see how we do against one another at the end of the season. I believe that is part of the NCC autox spirit. Currently I am not allowed to have my fun. I am stuck in XR that last time I was at an event, I was the only one running.

I think this sums it up pretty well. I can understand your position. HOWEVER...

When I started autocrossing the car I was driving was a second Gen RX-7 turbo with engine work and other modifications. There was no SM2 in 1997. I ran in "B Prepared." I was the only person in my class under most circumstances. Occasionally, a Corvette with no interior would show up and school me. I did still manage to have fun then, but now I would not be happy.

It was my choice to run that car and deal with the classing that they hit me with, and it sucked, which is why I eventually picked something up that would run in a more populated class.

This is part of the reason I've stuck with B Stock for the past two years. I could move up to BSP, but there are fewer participants there and I would much rather have more competition.

My 2 cents :D

woodym3
09-28-2004, 08:53 PM
[quote="FT"]At the same time, I agree with Woody that as BMW moves further away from performance into luxury, we will see more non-BMWs at track and autox events. However, that is not our problem to solve, but as a club we can provide feedback BMW NA and continue preaching BMW ownership.

Fatih,
If I said that, I don't remember, and I certainly don't agree that there will be fewer BMWs participating in driving events. The percentage of BMWs in SCCA autocrosses is growing every year.
Woody

Brandon
09-29-2004, 10:33 PM
Brandon, Koni SA's are cheaper then Bilstein's and the rebound adjustment doesn't do that much. They should be allowed in Showroom.

I have to admit I'm not that familiar with the Koni SA's (heck, I'm still running with my original suspension), but if the adjustment range is quite small, it might be perfectly acceptable. Others can decide that, but certainly the principle of non-adjustable shocks and struts makes sense for Showroom. It's a slippery slope, though, when exceptions are made for certain parts.

Pinecone
09-29-2004, 11:07 PM
Brandon, Koni SA's are cheaper then Bilstein's and the rebound adjustment doesn't do that much. They should be allowed in Showroom.

I have to admit I'm not that familiar with the Koni SA's (heck, I'm still running with my original suspension), but if the adjustment range is quite small, it might be perfectly acceptable. Others can decide that, but certainly the principle of non-adjustable shocks and struts makes sense for Showroom. It's a slippery slope, though, when exceptions are made for certain parts.

My concern is, Bilstein HD or Sports are every bit as capable a shock as Konis. SA Konis are a "standard" mod if someone goes away from stock shocks. So are Bilsteins. So why not allow the two most common shocks that performance drivers use?

I agree that allowing Double Adjustable Konis and such is WAS out of the Stock realm.

John V
09-30-2004, 06:21 AM
Within the realm of a stock car, Bilstein HDs != Koni SAs for the sole reason that BMWs (E36 and E46 cars at least) don't turn for crap from the factory. Jacking up the front rebound makes them MUCH more lively.

There is sufficient adjustment range to the Konis that they will provide an advantage over the Bilsteins if the installer knows how to adjust them.

John

Doby
09-30-2004, 07:23 AM
... if the installer knows how to adjust them.

Exactly, and those people would most likely be running other things that throw them into Prepared.

JimHarris
10-19-2004, 07:46 AM
This was my first year in the sport, and I didn't get around to participating in BMW club autocrosses until the last three events. But they were terrific, and I'm already looking forward to next year's series.

I agree with everything Rafael said (quoted below). I ran my MINI S on R compounds once and my ZO6 on OEM street tires twice, and I think the X/XR formula works just fine. Next year, I'll have to decide which to dedicate my effort to, but either works with me, as would embedding the MINI in a BMW class, if you so choose.

Thanks for having those of us who don't currently own a BMW. (I'm sure I will again some day.)

Cheers.

Jim



My personal opinions:

1. The BMW Club is for BMW enthusiasts (not necessarily BMW owners).

2. Registration priority should go to CCA members (regardless of what they are driving). Make a bigger financial distinction between members and non-members to encourage membership, but once someone is a member, you shouldn't "discriminate" on the basis of what they own or choose to drive at any particular event. Note, as Woody mentioned, there are overriding safety issues with certain types of vehicles participating in certain events (the convertible and SUV at driving school issues) that are not related to "classing" issues.

3. MINIs are BMW products. I'm not saying that they are the same as a BMW, but they are only sold through BMW affiliated stores. For our autox purposes, MINIs should be included in the BMW class structure. They should NOT get their own class any more than E36 M3s should get their own class.

4. X-Class should remain separate, and we should not have a complicated classing structure. I like the current system of those on "R" compound tires and those on street tires. I understand FT's point, but I disagree that there is a double standard being applied. If you're a member, you're welcome to participate. If you choose to bring an "other" car, then it should be classed accordingly. I don't think it appropriate for a BMW event to have BMWs competing directly against non-BMWs.

Pinecone
11-19-2004, 07:29 AM
... if the installer knows how to adjust them.

Exactly, and those people would most likely be running other things that throw them into Prepared.

Agreed, most people who would run Stock are pretty much beginners. And by the time someone develops the skills and knowledge to get the most out of SA shocks, they are running front bars, DA shocks, etc.

And even so, driver skill plays more of a part then having only rebound adjustment.

I just would hate to see the sport end up turning someone off who put a set of basic Koni SAs on the car, striaght out of the box, then ending up running Prepared agains the hot shoes there.

FT
11-19-2004, 12:10 PM
I just would hate to see the sport end up turning someone off who put a set of basic Koni SAs on the car, striaght out of the box, then ending up running Prepared agains the hot shoes there.
I don't want to re-start old discussion, but just to point out inconsistencies...

Think of the same statement you made in some other contexts and see if it holds true.

Doby
11-19-2004, 01:18 PM
There's always the other clubs besides the BMW club...

FT
11-20-2004, 01:19 PM
There's always the other clubs besides the BMW club...
Doby, you don't get it buddy; so that's OK.

Doby
11-20-2004, 02:02 PM
Fatih, it's the B M W Club. People that show up in a non-BMW shouldn't expect to have a full non-BMW classing structure in a B M W Club. I do get it.... do you?

Team BAR
11-20-2004, 02:09 PM
Keep the rules the same, change the rules if you like. Whether you get it or even if you don't, it doesn't matter.

A Team BAR driver will beat you every time anyway.

Disclaimer: This does not apply if your last name is Sheridan and you drive a silver BMW. Same thing if your last name is Stewart and you drive a purple car.

FT
11-20-2004, 02:26 PM
Fatih, it's the B M W Club. People that show up in a non-BMW shouldn't expect to have a full non-BMW classing structure in a B M W Club. I do get it.... do you?

You think you do, but you don't; don't waste your brain cycles ;)

Doby
11-21-2004, 09:20 AM
Great reply Fatih...

I wouldn't expect a Subaru Club to have a full non-Subaru classing structure. I wouldn't even expect them to allow me to enter my car. Oh wait, the Subaru Autox at Ripken was Subaru's only...

Start a Subaru Autox club and you can do whatever you'd like to do with it.

Much like the BMW club racing doesn't have non-BMW classing, neither does the BMW Autox. It's all the same club...

Going to something like a full SCCA structure would have people like Brochu and Steven in my class, and they wouldn't be happy about that.

You have a BMW and could/did autox it. You choose not to autox it with the BMW Club. That's your choice and you have to deal with it.

Doby
11-21-2004, 09:31 AM
And another thing.... why are you fighting so hard for a larger non-BMW classing structure? Really, why? I don't think I've seen a full explaination from you.

The seasoned people like yourself really shouldn't care what the classing structure is like. They already know what BMW's are in their SCCA Class and they can compare numbers with them. After going through the lists of results, 80-90% of the X-Class cars are being driven by peoplep who autox fairly often, they do not expect non-BMW classes.

And even if there were more non-BMW classes, you'd still be running againt the purple Camaro. What is your problem with the classing structure?

I fought for the 2 classes last year thinking that the seasoned autoxers would run r-comps, but none of them did.

Did you ever come up with a non-BMW classing structure?

Pete
11-21-2004, 10:02 AM
I agree with Doby, and others (Raph and others) that have expressed their opinion that this is a BMW club and that we should be catering to BMWs. While I believe we should give more stake to club member's opinions, ultimately we are here to provide a venue for people who drive BMWs more specifically people who drive BMWs and are new to AutoX and the club. Many of the other clubs such as Porsche has much less accommodating classing where all non Porsche cars are in their own class regardless of modification. I think the classing can be tweaked here are there in regards to defining the class rules as to what is allowed and not in each class but I currently like and think the classing is good where it is. There are club members that choose not to drive a BMW in these events and are ok with the classing system.

Pete

FT
11-21-2004, 11:27 AM
And another thing.... why are you fighting so hard for a larger non-BMW classing structure? Really, why? I don't think I've seen a full explaination from you.



Doby:

I'll try to explain why.

First, I don't really care about the classing structure honestly. I don't have intention to run the autoxes, not because you don't accommodate the non-BMWs, but because I do not have the time :)

So, why do I keep picking on this? On a less serious note: it is kind of fun irritating you guys :)

On the serious side: I think we can make the club a better club, and my way of doing it is pointing out inconsistencies as I see it. IMHO, 1- we cannot say we are a "BMW club" when the club's charter clearly states it is a "BMW enthusiasts' club". 2- We cannot claim that this is for fun and then not let non-BMW drivers have fun. 3- We make everyone pay the same due and then tell them "... but you don't own a BMW, so you are a 2nd class member". 4- We certainly cannot tell a full member to go find another club just because they don't agree with us. 5- We cannot have a club that is exclusive and draw a line in the sand only to admit certain like-minded people.

In short, we cannot say one thing and do something totally different. If this is a BMW club than don't ask non-BMW owners to pay due and don't give membership to them. If we are a BMW owners or enthusiasts club, then you have to listen and accomodate their needs as well.

I can accept the reasons for classing that acknowledges we do not have enough man power to run more classes, or its too expensive, or that there isn't enough non-BMWs participating, etc. I cannot accept an answer that says "...but you don't participate with your Bimmer". That is double standard.

Our DE events don't push non-BMWs to their own session with less competent instructors, do they? Or, Steven's driving tours don't say, you cannot stay in the same hotel as the BMW participants. I can go on and on.

Bottom line, either we are part of the BMWCCA and follow its charter and execute equally or we change our charter. We just cannot exclude from full benefits the non-BMW participants and then claim "... shocks should be allowed, because that is in the spirit of the sport".

Either we have social resposibilities and acknowledge them in all of our programs, or we don't; but make up your minds.

Why would I care about the Porsche or other clubs; but I care about our club.

:)

Doby
11-21-2004, 02:53 PM
First, I don't really care about the classing structure honestly. I don't have intention to run the autoxes, not because you don't accommodate the non-BMWs, but because I do not have the time

They are accommodated… they’re allowed to run.



So, why do I keep picking on this? On a less serious note: it is kind of fun irritating you guys

Cool, I’ll write a letter to the National Council and petition to have the Club name changed from the BMWCCA to the BMWECA. I guess with the PC world, it really should be the BMW Enthusiasts’ Club of America.



On the serious side: I think we can make the club a better club, and my way of doing it is pointing out inconsistencies as I see it. IMHO, 1- we cannot say we are a "BMW club" when the club's charter clearly states it is a "BMW enthusiasts' club". 2- We cannot claim that this is for fun and then not let non-BMW drivers have fun. 3- We make everyone pay the same due and then tell them "... but you don't own a BMW, so you are a 2nd class member". 4- We certainly cannot tell a full member to go find another club just because they don't agree with us. 5- We cannot have a club that is exclusive and draw a line in the sand only to admit certain like-minded people.


No one is asking them to join the club, they want to join on their own. And for the most part, they understand that an Autox is for fun. So they show up and have fun driving their cars… whether they are BMW’s or not.



In short, we cannot say one thing and do something totally different. If this is a BMW club than don't ask non-BMW owners to pay due and don't give membership to them. If we are a BMW owners or enthusiasts club, then you have to listen and accommodate their needs as well.

I can accept the reasons for classing that acknowledges we do not have enough man power to run more classes, or it’s too expensive, or that there isn't enough non-BMWs participating, etc. I cannot accept an answer that says "...but you don't participate with your Bimmer". That is double standard.

There is not a double-standard here. Talking about whether shocks should bump a BMW up to a different class is different then saying that we should have multiple X-classes. Again, it goes back to it being a BMW Club. If people want to join, then they should realize that it’s a BMW Club, and Autox is fun competition. They should be having fun out on the course no matter what class they are in. If they want more competition, there is always the Sports Car Club of America with by definition is for ALL cars.



Our DE events don't push non-BMWs to their own session with less competent instructors, do they? Or, Steven's driving tours don't say, you cannot stay in the same hotel as the BMW participants. I can go on and on.


Since when are DE’s fun competition? That’s a big no-no to even state that. Tours also… are they like the Gumball Rally’s? So there’s a classing structure for DE’s? No, there isn’t one at all, because there is no competition allowed. If they want competition on the track, there is always BMWCCA (not BMWECA) Club Racing.


Bottom line, either we are part of the BMWCCA and follow its charter and execute equally or we change our charter. We just cannot exclude from full benefits the non-BMW participants and then claim "... shocks should be allowed, because that is in the spirit of the sport".

Either we have social responsibilities and acknowledge them in all of our programs, or we don't; but make up your minds.

Why would I care about the Porsche or other clubs; but I care about our club.



No one is excluded… they non-BMW's ARE allowed to run in our autoxes, plain and simple.

1996 328ti
11-21-2004, 05:49 PM
Not all BMW CCA members are BMW enthusiasts.
Some join just to run more autocrosses.
Some non-BMW owning membes later buy BMWs.
The point of the club is not to sell BMWs but for BMW enthusiasts to have fun with their cars. We have always welcomed non-owners. We have a classing structure for BMWs. All others are in X class. We are not an autocross club.

The discussion really shouldn't be about X class or incorporating non BMWs into our present structure.

John V
11-22-2004, 10:03 AM
IIRC, FT isn't campaigning for more X classes - he wants his Subaru to be able to run in the same class as it would in the SCCA, or a close equivalent.

FT.. I love ya.. but you're the one who doesn't get it here.

Even if we used the SCCA classing structure, you wouldn't be competing against Doby, Glenn, Bud, Austin, or Eric. You and the Barney Camaro would duke it out for the ESP trophy every week and that would be that. Based on your comments on the WDCR board you're unhappy about competing against the American muscle cars in the SCCA events. Who, exactly, do you want to compete against? I suggest you go the route that Jack Brennan did and run street mod. You'll at least have a variety of cars to compete against (VWs, BMWs, Subarus, Mitsubishis, Hondas...).

The club gives you a place to compete (because we don't discriminate based on what you drive) but it just doesn't make sense that we would incorporate non BMWs into the BMW classing structure because it's a BMW club. It would severely alienate a good portion of our contingency if there was no BMW-specific aspect to the classing.

I think Doby said it best. I would not expect a Subaru club to integrate non-subarus into their Subaru classes. I would not expect the PCA or the Corvette club to do this either. It's not going to happen. Get over it.

John

robmarch
11-29-2004, 09:23 PM
I think it's great that the BMW club opens their events to non BMWs, and I'm sure it helps them fund their events better, in many cases.

I like the SCCA events for the competition, and the other club events for the low key fun atmosphere and seat time.

that's just coming from a slow novice, though, so apply grain of salt as required.

Pinecone
01-10-2005, 09:57 AM
Actually since we are a chartered club with BMW CCA their rules say that anyone can join. Unlike Porche Club where you have to have a P-car VIN to even join.