VIR Full Course Trackday... Aug. 30th/31st- Registration Open!

[ChosenGSR]

I figured I'd chime in on the subject since I've done a TrackDaze (Formerly R32 I believe) earlier this year and obviously I've done numerous BMW CCA events as well as some MB/Audi events. Off the top of my head I have something like 14 track days in total. It's really interesting to see the different approaches to running events. I think people need to keep an open mind and consider different points of view on all of these topics.

For example, when I ran VIR at Marque Madness (Woody was instructing me) I was placed in C group even though I've done VIR on multiple occasions before. I really don't want to sound arrogant or whatnot, but I felt like I was completely out of place, even Woody himself suggested that I shouldn't be in that group. The problem is that there is hardly ever any flexibility to changing the grouping of the student during the event. I can see the conservative approach in placing students in groups, but there should be a way to bump groups without having to wait until the "next" driving school to maximize student experience. I learned a great amount that weekend, Woody is extremely demanding and quite the perfectionist. My only "beef" was the fact that I issued one (maybe two I can't remember) point bys all weekend and that was during the time when it started to drizzle, I am always on the cautious side. That might not seem like an issue to some, but I feel that it takes away from my learning experience. I notice that in these type of situations I forget to use the rear view mirror, and the lack of overall "pressure" of having someone on your tail takes away from the overall learning experience quite a bit.

My experience with (at the time) R32 group was also very interesting. It was my first time to the Shenandoah circuit, I was put in the blue group. Saturday morning myself (and some others) quickly realized that blue was actually solo. I believe the paperwork actually said at the time that instructors will be riding with intermediate for the first few sessions at the very least. Being that it was my first time ever at that track I quickly grabbed an advanced student to ride with me for two sessions. By the end of the day I was up to speed with the rest of the crowd. I really wished I would have had an instructor at least available to me for the first day. I was there to learn, and even though due to my overall "experience" I was able to get up to speed quickly I wished I could have tapped the experience of an instructor for the whole event.

Fast forward to the MB event at Shenandoah just last month. I was determined to get back to Shenandoah to get a little more experience before year end. MB conservatively placed me in their C group equivalent, due to my "only" 2 prior days of experience. By the end of the day my instructor (one of the veterans with MB club) has bumped me up to their intermediate group and solo'd me. I told him I didn't really care about running solo, but I loved the fact that he was able to adjust to my experience and performance quickly in a way where I got to enjoy myself the next day to the "fullest" potential. I also loved how MB combined intermediate and advanced (instructor) (due to time constraints) the last session of Sunday, I loved running with instructors.

Anyway, 3 different clubs, 3 different ways of handling students and experience. I think each club has it's highs and lows. It's been my experience that BMW CCA is extremely conservative, sometimes more than I (personally) would have liked. I understand that safety is a big factor, it's tough to juggle all of these things at the same time and please everyone. I personally don't limit myself to any one club, even though I am a diehard BMW fan. I enjoy doing events with all the clubs, they all have great things to offer.

[78 Rocco]

My experience with (at the time) R32 group was also very interesting. It was my first time to the Shenandoah circuit, I was put in the blue group. Saturday morning myself (and some others) quickly realized that blue was actually solo. I believe the paperwork actually said at the time that instructors will be riding with intermediate for the first few sessions at the very least. Being that it was my first time ever at that track I quickly grabbed an advanced student to ride with me for two sessions. By the end of the day I was up to speed with the rest of the crowd. I really wished I would have had an instructor at least available to me for the first day. I was there to learn, and even though due to my overall "experience" I was able to get up to speed quickly I wished I could have tapped the experience of an instructor for the whole event.


Anyway, 3 different clubs, 3 different ways of handling students and experience. I think each club has it's highs and lows. It's been my experience that BMW CCA is extremely conservative, sometimes more than I (personally) would have liked. I understand that safety is a big factor, it's tough to juggle all of these things at the same time and please everyone. I personally don't limit myself to any one club, even though I am a diehard BMW fan. I enjoy doing events with all the clubs, they all have great things to offer.

Thanks for the feedback... We are looking at tweeking and clarifying our "Intermediate-Blue" group a bit. It has always been a "solo" group, basically our intent was to have HPDE 2.5.. for those who are ready to solo, but not pass in corners or do not want the pressure and action of passing in corners (with a point of course). At both Summit and VIR, we attempted to honor requests for those Intermediates that wanted an instructor for the 1st session or two, but this proved extremely difficult for several reasons from logistics and timing to instructors themselves, etc, etc..

So anyway, no excuses but just to let you know we are listening, recognize the issues and working to improve constantly... And yes, clarifying and dealing with the "solo" nature of our Intermediate-Blue Group is one of the improvements.

Thanks again, Eric

[fpol]

I *prefer* having at least some instruction available since I've never failed to learn something, BUT I've also experienced, some of the "i can sign you off now, there's nothing else to teach you" types and really, I can do without that since, that just isn't true in my case.

From my fairly limited perspective, just 29 days, i think that while folks might be ready to go solo at (what is it 14 days for intermediate?) I'm not sure that most are at a point where they *should* go solo for an entire 2 days at that point. It's great for the ego of the guy who wants to say they solo'd, but I'd bet a driver of similar experience who spent at least some sessions with a (dedicated) instructor ends up that much ahead of the game. That's why NCC rules - not for track time, just flat out great dedicated instruction, skidpad, and classroom.

I wanted to go solo a while back just from hearing others going solo. Having driven about 4 complete days solo, I could care less - except for the odd session just to get a good picture one up.

I've got too much to learn...

...but now no car to learn in .

[1996 328ti]

I *prefer* having at least some instruction available since I've never failed to learn something, BUT I've also experienced, some of the "i can sign you off now, there's nothing else to teach you" types and really, I can do without that since, that just isn't true in my case.

I've had club racers tell me there was nothing more to teach me and quit frankly, if someone was just going to be a passenger, I'd rather be solo to experiment on my own.

It's kinda a scary when you are in A or B group and find the solo driver in front of you driving their rear view mirrors. Clearly they were not ready to be signed off in that group.

[woodym3]

For example, when I ran VIR at Marque Madness (Woody was instructing me) I was placed in C group even though I've done VIR on multiple occasions before. I really don't want to sound arrogant or whatnot, but I felt like I was completely out of place, even Woody himself suggested that I shouldn't be in that group. The problem is that there is hardly ever any flexibility to changing the grouping of the student during the event.

Often it's just a logistical problem Alex. For instance, if an instructor wants to move his C student up to B, because of scheduling problems he might not be able to instruct in B group. This means there has to be an extra instructor available in the B group.

Another point, it was a long time ago, but I remember when I was a novice and intermediate student how I couldn't wait to be signed off for solo. I really felt I knew what I was doing and didn't like having someone else tell me to do something different. How little I knew. Now I love getting another instructor to ride along and offer suggestions.

These days I am pleasantly surprised (well, not always pleasantly) when I suggest to an advanced student that they should go solo for the next session and they say they want me to stay with them.

[Real M3]

<snippage> Another point, it was a long time ago, but I remember when I was a novice and intermediate student how I couldn't wait to be signed off for solo. I really felt I knew what I was doing and didn't like having someone else tell me to do something different. <Snippage>

Yea Woody,but you know Model T's didn't reach the speeds of the average BMW of today! (Ducking)

[woodym3]

Look who's calling the kettle black. But I do remember the days when a 2002 with dual Webers was the fastest thing on the track.

[Real M3]

Look who's calling the kettle black. But I do remember the days when a 2002 with dual Webers was the fastest thing on the track.

Yea, yea, we Geeze's have to stick together! And, yes I agree about the 2002 with dual side draft webbers, had one of those as well! Kinda of sad when you realize that those cars are older than a lot of the guys on this board now!

Need to go take my Geritol mixed with Red Bull!

[orijinal_poser]

<snippage> Another point, it was a long time ago, but I remember when I was a novice and intermediate student how I couldn't wait to be signed off for solo. I really felt I knew what I was doing and didn't like having someone else tell me to do something different. <Snippage>

Yea Woody,but you know Model T's didn't reach the speeds of the average BMW of today! (Ducking)

LOL!