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View Full Version : Chapter Event 01/16/2010 - Annual NCC Autocross Meeting



Highflyr777
12-16-2009, 01:51 PM
You are formally invited to attend the Annual NCC Autocross Meeting! All participants with a vested interest in our autocross program are encouraged to come and shape next years program.

** PLEASE RSVP BY POSTING IN THIS THREAD - THANKS! **

We will be holding the meeting at:

DigitalBridge Communications
44675 Cape Court
Suite 130
Ashburn, VA 20147

When:

Saturday, January 16, 2010 @<hidden> 5:00 p.m.

End time is very flexible as this will be a working meeting. We will finish when all items have been resolved.

Thank you,

Wes Norman


p.s. Food and beverages (soda + beer) will be provided for all attendees.

Reach
12-16-2009, 03:44 PM
Free beer? Well shit count me in then. ;)

mcoupemindy
12-19-2009, 01:17 AM
Anyone else going to be attending?

This is your opportunity to shape classes and other important aspects of our program.

And yes - FREE BEER!

hoyabmw
12-19-2009, 11:58 AM
Too bad it's the same night as the SCCA banquet.

KatieT
12-20-2009, 10:26 PM
I'll be there.

~Katie

noelleslie
12-21-2009, 01:22 PM
SCCA banquet...or.... NCC Autocross + Free Beer + NCC family. Is there a decision here?

I will be there (work permitting).

ronh21
12-21-2009, 03:15 PM
I'm planning to be there

Luda
12-22-2009, 03:59 PM
i will of course be there, although a little late since the gf will be flying in around 4:30pm, but shes flying into dulles so i shouldnt be to late

mcoupemindy
12-22-2009, 04:11 PM
i will of course be there, although a little late since the gf will be flying in around 4:30pm, but shes flying into dulles so i shouldnt be to late

Lame excuse for being late. She can walk from Dulles to here. :)

Highflyr777
12-23-2009, 10:04 AM
i will of course be there, although a little late since the gf will be flying in around 4:30pm, but shes flying into dulles so i shouldnt be to late




Lame excuse for being late. She can walk from Dulles to here. :)

or give her $20 for a Cab ride if you have any feelings for her.

Reach
12-23-2009, 11:07 AM
He promised to take her out for a hot date. Little did she know she'll be sitting with us? hehe.

At least you can buy her a free beer!

mscire2
12-30-2009, 11:54 AM
ill be there

mcoupemindy
12-30-2009, 12:01 PM
ill be there

What some people will do for free beer ... LOL

mcoupemindy
01-09-2010, 09:18 AM
Anyone else?!?!?

This meeting will help form our 2010 program.

jbrannon7
01-09-2010, 10:33 AM
Right now, I am a maybe, but hopefully.

Joe

mcoupemindy
01-09-2010, 12:45 PM
Right now, I am a maybe, but hopefully.

Joe

That's excellent Joe! We'd love to have you.

phenryiv1
01-11-2010, 03:34 PM
I'd like to still stand by my written comments and recommendations. I'd love to attend, but family obligations are a step above recreation right now. No offense intended.

I know that my one suggestion seems like a pretty simple one (about RSTBs in Tuner), but I think that the motor swap classing issue should be discussed. Maybe the resolution will be to leave it as-is, but I believe that it merits discussion.

Do we have a good resource of classing rules for other chapters?

woodym3
01-11-2010, 05:01 PM
Here are some links to the rules used by the national Oktoberfest event and some of the few chapters that have active autocross programs:

1. Oktoberfest groups cars by models and places them in one of three or four levels depending on potential performance of the stock car and the nature of modifications. The result is that some classes have 1 or 2 entries and some like slightly modified E36 M3s have up to 30 entries.
http://www.bmwccaofest.org/autocross-classes.phtml

2. Golden Gate, Windy City, Boston and New Jersey chapters all use a system where each car model is assigned certain points and each modification adds other points. Then the total of your points puts you in one of six or so classes. Someone keeps up with the various models and makes estimates of the effects of different modifications. As examples of the complexity of this system, each ECU chip has different points depending on maker and the model of car to which it is applied. Another example is they list different point factors for 53 various M3 models (USA or Europe, manual or auto transmission, sedan, coupe or convertible, E30, E36, E46, etc). Who wants to adminster that?
http://www.boston-bmwcca.org/EventDescription/2009/autocross-classification.aspx

3. San Diego chapter uses 7 classes that pretty much say it all: Four cylinder, 6/8/12 cyl stock, 6/8/12 cyl modified, M-car stock, M-car modified, Mini Cooper, X-cars.

4. The New York chapter uses a simplified version of the Boston/NJ point system:
http://www.nybmwcca.org/downloads/2009-autocross-classification.pdf

5. Lone Star chapter also uses the point system:
http://www.lscbmwcca.org/autocross-rules-base.html

6. Houston also uses the point system:
http://www.dlbracing.com/clubs/houston-bmwcca/classes.aspx

mcoupemindy
01-11-2010, 06:12 PM
Here are some links to the rules used by the national Oktoberfest event and some of the few chapters that have active autocross programs:

1. Oktoberfest groups cars by models and places them in one of three or four levels depending on potential performance of the stock car and the nature of modifications. The result is that some classes have 1 or 2 entries and some like slightly modified E36 M3s have up to 30 entries.
http://www.bmwccaofest.org/autocross-classes.phtml

2. Golden Gate, Windy City, Boston and New Jersey chapters all use a system where each car model is assigned certain points and each modification adds other points. Then the total of your points puts you in one of six or so classes. Someone keeps up with the various models and makes estimates of the effects of different modifications. As examples of the complexity of this system, each ECU chip has different points depending on maker and the model of car to which it is applied. Another example is they list different point factors for 53 various M3 models (USA or Europe, manual or auto transmission, sedan, coupe or convertible, E30, E36, E46, etc). Who wants to adminster that?
http://www.boston-bmwcca.org/EventDescription/2009/autocross-classification.aspx

3. San Diego chapter uses 7 classes that pretty much say it all: Four cylinder, 6/8/12 cyl stock, 6/8/12 cyl modified, M-car stock, M-car modified, Mini Cooper, X-cars.

4. The New York chapter uses a simplified version of the Boston/NJ point system:
http://www.nybmwcca.org/downloads/2009-autocross-classification.pdf

5. Lone Star chapter also uses the point system:
http://www.lscbmwcca.org/autocross-rules-base.html

6. Houston also uses the point system:
http://www.dlbracing.com/clubs/houston-bmwcca/classes.aspx

Thanks Woody!

phenryiv1
01-12-2010, 11:24 AM
Here are some links to the rules used by the national Oktoberfest event and some of the few chapters that have active autocross programs:

1. Oktoberfest groups cars by models and places them in one of three or four levels depending on potential performance of the stock car and the nature of modifications. The result is that some classes have 1 or 2 entries and some like slightly modified E36 M3s have up to 30 entries.
http://www.bmwccaofest.org/autocross-classes.phtml

2. Golden Gate, Windy City, Boston and New Jersey chapters all use a system where each car model is assigned certain points and each modification adds other points. Then the total of your points puts you in one of six or so classes. Someone keeps up with the various models and makes estimates of the effects of different modifications. As examples of the complexity of this system, each ECU chip has different points depending on maker and the model of car to which it is applied. Another example is they list different point factors for 53 various M3 models (USA or Europe, manual or auto transmission, sedan, coupe or convertible, E30, E36, E46, etc). Who wants to adminster that?
http://www.boston-bmwcca.org/EventDescription/2009/autocross-classification.aspx

3. San Diego chapter uses 7 classes that pretty much say it all: Four cylinder, 6/8/12 cyl stock, 6/8/12 cyl modified, M-car stock, M-car modified, Mini Cooper, X-cars.

4. The New York chapter uses a simplified version of the Boston/NJ point system:
http://www.nybmwcca.org/downloads/2009-autocross-classification.pdf

5. Lone Star chapter also uses the point system:
http://www.lscbmwcca.org/autocross-rules-base.html

6. Houston also uses the point system:
http://www.dlbracing.com/clubs/houston-bmwcca/classes.aspx
Okay, I now have a greater perspective of how much of a PITA it CAN be to class. I never thought it was easy, but I'd rather see our organizers involved in activities rather than doing long division to assess points.

Several things there look like we might be able to draw them in, but the point system does not look like a win.

As you put it...


Someone keeps up with the various models and makes estimates of the effects of different modifications. Who wants to adminster that?

Thanks again for that post.

1996 328ti
01-12-2010, 12:04 PM
Okay, I now have a greater perspective of how much of a PITA it CAN be to class. I never thought it was easy, but I'd rather see our organizers involved in activities rather than doing long division to assess points.And keep in mind, every chapter figures they have the best system.

I happen to like Sandlapper's system.
There is none. Just drive and have fun.
http://www.sandlapperbmw.org/Autocrosstimes.html

phenryiv1
01-12-2010, 02:55 PM
http://www.nybmwcca.org/downloads/2009-autocross-classification.pdf

The system in the NY chapter seems pretty easy. The Swap penalty (15 points) is pretty significant, but it makes sense. Well, it makes sense unless you use examples like going from an M50NV to an M50 vanos, or from an M20B27 to an M20B25. In those cases where motors are swapped within the same chassis, the NCC rule of classing as the donor makes sense. In swaps across chasis, they could use a rule like they use with the ratio- the rated HP increase (based on factory specs) equates to a particular point increase. On top of that, mods are still assessed.

Also, the ratio penalty is a novel concept, but it does not accomodate for updating/backdating of factory-available ratios, as you would think that it would.

What if all of the cars were classed in the 4 current classes, and mods add points to move from stock to tuner or modified? We could still have 12 (BMW) classes- 4 stock classes, 4 "tuner" classes that are stock plus zero to "X" points, then 4 "modified" classes that are stock plus more than X points.

Using our 4 base/stock classes, the NY point system, and a few minor modifications (as noted above) could be pretty straightforward.

Thoughts? Damn, I wish I could make the meeting.

Biggins
01-12-2010, 03:13 PM
I think there needs to be consistency. Keep the exact same classes as last year!

If we're planning to keep catering more to non-BMWs, then my biggest suggestion is to use SCCA PAX to determine the standings for non-BMWs. Those on ST or regular street tires run in XS, those on R-comps only run in XR. Use the PAX to determine the standings.

My only recommended changes in the rules are:
Allow fixed back seats in Tuner
Word the coilover suspension description better

woodym3
01-12-2010, 03:28 PM
If we're planning to keep catering more to non-BMWs, then my biggest suggestion is to use SCCA PAX to determine the standings for non-BMWs. Those on ST or regular street tires run in XS, those on R-comps only run in XR. Use the PAX to determine the standings.



So if I show up with my '82 Dodge Conquest with about eight mild modifications who is going to tell me what SCCA class I'm in for PAX purposes?

Claff
01-12-2010, 04:51 PM
If we're planning to keep catering more to non-BMWs, then my biggest suggestion is to use SCCA PAX to determine the standings for non-BMWs. Those on ST or regular street tires run in XS, those on R-comps only run in XR. Use the PAX to determine the standings.

I like the free-for-all in the non-BMW classes, though I wouldn't mind seeing stuff like Azenis being considered street tires rather than race tires (I run Azenis as my Miata's every-day tires). But I won't whine if the tire classing doesn't change.

What I'd really like is to see the "X" being broken out further, but only into two more classes. When I ran in October I was up against all kinds of fun stuff, including a Corvette Z06, in XR with the wife's box-stock '93 Miata. Thanks to questionable tire choices on the Corvette's part, and no small amount of rain, I wound up beating it but under other conditions it'd have smacked me around and left me for dead.

I don't know how many "X" cars you get regularly but I'd love to see them separated into "big cars" and "little cars". It could be done simply with a displacement cutoff somewhere around 2.0L, maybe 2.2L, with turbos and superchargers automatically getting bumped into the high displacement class regardless.

I don't have much else to offer, having run with you guys only once, but I hope to run more in 2010 as my schedule allows.

MazdaSC
01-12-2010, 05:20 PM
So if I show up with my '82 Dodge Conquest with about eight mild modifications who is going to tell me what SCCA class I'm in for PAX purposes?
I agree with Woody on this, PAX is a nice idea but determining what your PAX multiplier would be pretty difficult unless you are currently running yor car in SCCA classes. I think we would be better served with three non-BMW classes Stock (no mods 220+ tires) Tuner (= BMW tuner allowable mods 140+ tires) Unlimited (any mods any tires). XS, XT and XU classes.

MazdaSC
01-12-2010, 05:28 PM
After looking at the rules again just apply the BMW rules for Showroom, Tuner and Modified to the non-BMW's and call them XS, XT and XM.

woodym3
01-12-2010, 06:09 PM
I don't know how many "X" cars you get regularly but I'd love to see them separated into "big cars" and "little cars". It could be done simply with a displacement cutoff somewhere around 2.0L, maybe 2.2L, with turbos and superchargers automatically getting bumped into the high displacement class regardless.



Claff,
Nothing will be decided before the meeting, but I suspect you will find something like you're proposing here, but will 4 instead of 2 displacement levels.

woodym3
01-12-2010, 06:15 PM
And keep in mind, every chapter figures they have the best system.

I happen to like Sandlapper's system.
There is none. Just drive and have fun.
http://www.sandlapperbmw.org/Autocrosstimes.html

Wow. Good turnout Steven. But how many AX events does Sandlapper Chapter have a year - one? I suspect if they have a regular program the participants will get tired of getting beaten by Renner and demand classes.

1996 328ti
01-12-2010, 06:18 PM
Wow. Good turnout Steven. But how many AX events does Sandlapper Chapter have a year - one? I suspect if they have a regular program the participants will get tired of getting beaten by Renner and demand classes.
Only 1 or 2 a year. They are usually short notice.

Biggins
01-13-2010, 11:34 AM
So if I show up with my '82 Dodge Conquest with about eight mild modifications who is going to tell me what SCCA class I'm in for PAX purposes?
My thinking is that if you're running an '82 Conquest or any other oddball car, you'll either a) already know your car or b) just throw them into the relevant catch-all ST or Stock class.

There is a pretty detailed list out there each year for most everything that would show up at an SCCA event. Have the list at registration or a link to the list so people can figure it out themselves.

I understand the need to accommodate other makes, but this is a BMW club, and I think two classes is plenty: use PAX to determine standings or leave as-is. FYI, I may very possibly be running in non-BMW class.

I liked the pre-2009 classing system, but I still think we need to stay consistent year-to-year.

mcoupemindy
01-13-2010, 11:39 AM
My thinking is that if you're running an '82 Conquest or any other oddball car, you'll either a) already know your car or b) just throw them into the relevant catch-all ST or Stock class.

There is a pretty detailed list out there each year for most everything that would show up at an SCCA event. Have the list at registration or a link to the list so people can figure it out themselves.

I understand the need to accommodate other makes, but this is a BMW club, and I think two classes is plenty: use PAX to determine standings or leave as-is. FYI, I may very possibly be running in non-BMW class.

I liked the pre-2009 classing system, but I still think we need to stay consistent year-to-year.

Pre-2009 rules were hard to understand for newcomers. Honestly, the 2009 rules changed very little from what existed in 2008 and prior other than the elimination of the either or rules (confusing).

The thing to note is that a overwhelming majority of participants noted that they were happy (no modifications needed) to our 2009 rules according to the survey published to all participants.

Just food for thought ...

Biggins
01-13-2010, 11:55 AM
Pre-2009 rules were hard to understand for newcomers. Honestly, the 2009 rules changed very little from what existed in 2008 and prior other than the elimination of the either or rules (confusing).

The thing to note is that a overwhelming majority of participants noted that they were happy (no modifications needed) to our 2009 rules according to the survey published to all participants.

Just food for thought ...
I was one of those, and that's partly my point. I don't think the BMW rules should be touched (except for allowing fixed back seats in Tuner). The rules/classes aren't going to make me stop autocrossing.

I'm fine with the non-BMW classes how they are right now, but it's clear that a stock Hyundai Accent on snow tires has no equalizer-factor to a Corvette on OEM tires. I'm perfectly fine with that, but I'm assuming some people running in non-BMW classes would want to have some type of factor to determine if they're on par with the Corvette. That's why I'm suggesting PAX.