PDA

View Full Version : Track Brake Pads



VA 330Ci
01-26-2007, 10:20 AM
Hi all! I want to get a good set of brake pads that are track dedicated (wont be used for everyday driving) but can be driven to/from track safetly. I was thinking a more agressive front pad with a less agressive rear. Maybe something like Hawk HT-10 up front and Axxis Ultimate in rear. Any suggestions? Would the above mentioned set-up be ok to get me to/from track.

I am looking for pads that will not leave so much deposit on the rotors and will provide a better bite. Last DE, I think I left half my front pads on the rotors. :frown: Thanks in advance for recommendations.

jkuper
01-26-2007, 04:06 PM
Contact Eric Wong at BrakeSwap.com. He's local and carried Carbotech, Hawk, etc. He will set you up with the right pad for your experience, tires, etc.

odortiz
01-26-2007, 07:33 PM
i like dealing with this guy. he has never steered me wrong.

http://www.zeckhausen.com/products.htm

he's in NJ

ChosenGSR
01-26-2007, 08:20 PM
I've been using cool willies from Turner. I like those for DEs and you can definitely drive to/from track. I've driven to VIR with those several times.

mlytle
01-26-2007, 11:05 PM
I've been using cool willies from Turner. I like those for DEs and you can definitely drive to/from track. I've driven to VIR with those several times.

i will second that. outstanding de pad....it is what i used in the dark ages back when i did de's...

glindsay
01-27-2007, 10:47 AM
After several DEs in my 330Ci, I too developed the pad-material-on-rotor condition. I have found the 330/330Ci in particular to have an excellent brake system (nice big rotors), but the OEM pads can be easily consumed. In my case both front and rear rotors were contaminated and also had boiled fluid issues.

For the last 15 or so schools, I’ve run Hawk HP Plus pads on both front and rear and ATE Gold fluid. Certainly not the best setup, but have learned to work within limits and don’t feel out-braked by others in the schools running more aggressive pads.

The braking performance of the HP Plus pads is a large step above OEM to the point that some street experience will do a driver well on the track. Although I’ve found the HP Plus to perform very consistently in all sorts of temperatures, careful - these pads will out-brake anything on the street. Recall once being surprised by a yellow and stopping confidently - certainly not abruptly, but the 3 SUVs behind me did not share same. No bumpers involved but a whole lot o’ rubber left and browned shorts, my shorts too.

Typically, I’ll switch pads a week or 2 before and after the event. And if the events are only a few weeks apart, I’ll just leave them on. These pads squeal like a whole pen of pigs and dust wheels like crazy. But they do not burn into wheel nor fender paint as is seen with some more aggressive pads.

It’s now above freezing, time to wash chemicals off the fleet.

VA 330Ci
01-27-2007, 11:50 AM
Thanks for the input guys! Anyone else?

Looking forward to March!!!!!

Indy Red M3
01-27-2007, 12:01 PM
I used Porterfield R4 for years, and switched to Performance Friction 001 4 + years ago. They really last, don't dust much, kind to rotors and metal particles don't adhere to your paint and wheels, like some of the Hawk pads.
I leave them in year round, as I'm to lazy to take them out.
They squell like a pig around town, which is obnoxiously fun.
I used the Axxis Ulitimates in the rear, but as of last year, the PF 001 is now available in the rear for E 46 M3.

OwnedbyDuncan
01-27-2007, 01:28 PM
You may want to ask around to include the chapter's chief instructor about mixing or running different pad compounds front and rear on your car. It sint something I would do on a street car. And I believe the chief instructor didnt recommend on some cars not sure about yours and current thinking

Dave Apker

orijinal_poser
01-27-2007, 04:40 PM
I used Porterfield R4 for years, and switched to Performance Friction 001 4 + years ago. They really last, don't dust much, kind to rotors and metal particles don't adhere to your paint and wheels, like some of the Hawk pads.
I leave them in year round, as I'm to lazy to take them out.
They squell like a pig around town, which is obnoxiously fun.
I used the Axxis Ulitimates in the rear, but as of last year, the PF 001 is now available in the rear for E 46 M3.
Have you heard/tried the Z-rated pads from performance friction?

I am thinking about running either the PFC Z-Rated or Hawk HP+, but even my friends who have run HP+ are telling me to run the Z-Rated. Supposedly, the Z-rated is an excellent street pad that can hold it's own at HPDE's.

ChosenGSR
01-27-2007, 08:10 PM
HP+ is not a good track/DE pad. It's a very aggressive street pad. I subscribe to the idea of swapping pads when going to DEs. All purpose pads are like all season tires, nothing you want to go to the track with.

odortiz
01-27-2007, 09:44 PM
HP+ is not a good track/DE pad. It's a very aggressive street pad. I subscribe to the idea of swapping pads when going to DEs. All purpose pads are like all season tires, nothing you want to go to the track with.

a hawk representative has been quoted regarding hp+ pads not being good for track use. fine for auto-x.

speak to dave zeckhausen about brakes.

Real M3
01-29-2007, 10:13 AM
a hawk representative has been quoted regarding hp+ pads not being good for track use. fine for auto-x.

speak to dave zeckhausen about brakes.


Well, this certainly follows along with my personal experiences with the Hawk HP+ pads. Did a lot of Autox and used them for my daily street pad, all with good success. One note was that these pads in my application were VERY noisy for the street and were some dirty, but that was to be expected. For track days, I found that as I increased in my level of of skill and aggressiveness on the track, these pads simply did not provide the stopping power that I needed. I was definitely running out of stopping power and durability with the HP+s on long tracks like into T1 at VIR and the backstraight at Mid Oh. I talked with James Clay at Bimmerworld and I ended up with the Hawk HT10s for track days. These are really good and I've not run out of braking power with them, but they are not a daily driver pad by any means, they need to be warm to be fully effective and kept up to temp. They are somewhat "rotor hungry" as well, but they do stop quite nicely and have good torque. With a heavier car like the E46s, I can only imagine that the HP+s would only go away quicker at DE events.

odortiz
01-29-2007, 02:08 PM
the problem with them is once you exceed about 700 deg. the friction falls off the map. it's also how i ended in the gravel trap in turn one at summit.

Nick325xiT 5spd
01-30-2007, 07:07 AM
Do not run street pads in the rear with track pads up front. All that means is that your rear brakes won't be doing anything. You'll also melt through them pretty quickly.

1996 328ti
01-30-2007, 07:15 AM
Do not run street pads in the rear with track pads up front. All that means is that your rear brakes won't be doing anything. You'll also melt through them pretty quickly.
I ran Carbotech XP8 upfront and Ultimate Axxis or maybe they where Carbotech Bobcats in the rear. Either way, the rears wore down very quickly. Now for me, XP10 upfront and XP8 for the rear.

Scotty
01-30-2007, 05:03 PM
Don't forget the high-temp brake fluid. ATE Super Blue (or Gold) is a good choice.

orijinal_poser
01-30-2007, 06:57 PM
yea, i ran carbotech XP16's on the front & delux economy pads in the rear. Oh, and i was on street tire @<hidden> VIR. HORRIBLE combination!!!! LOL

Bimmer3
02-01-2007, 04:32 PM
Interesting thread, and everyone has their own opinion on brakes. Here are my thoughts.

I drive a '98 323is, and I had the same experience with the HP+ as "Glindsay." I just put on PFC Z-Rated pads, after having used HP+'s for two years, all year round. I like not having to hear each rotor singing a different tune when I slowed down for a light or stop sign, or having to clean my wheels every few days, I find the Z-Rated pads much less dusty. BUT, I miss the bite of the HP+, on the street. Although, the PFC's now seem to have more bite than they did 2 months ago. I have not had them on the track, yet, but will try them and see how they do. I am now using GS610 brake fluid and have SS brake lines. PFC says the Z-Rated are not supposed to be a "track" pad either.

As far as the HP+ not being a good pad for DE, well, that depends on how you use them. If your idea of driving at a DE is to brake hard at each and every braking point, then no, they will turn your rotors gray, overheat, and lose bite very quickly. BUT, this can teach you how NOT to use them up and conserve them. If you choose not to use them up, you can get by on the track with just about anything. Change your driving style to match the brakes you are running. Simple. If you want to out brake everyone, get the best performing pad and change them at the track. If you want to learn how to brake well, and consistently, back off a little and use a less aggressive pad.

See you at VIR or Summit Point? Or OG Racing?

Bimmer3

woodym3
02-02-2007, 11:02 AM
Hi all! I want to get a good set of brake pads that are track dedicated (wont be used for everyday driving) but can be driven to/from track safetly.

I've been driving year round with the Performance Friction 90 on the front of my M3. Unfortunately, they are no longer available. The Porterfield R4 is capable of this too. Here is a tread about the track performance of the PF 01 on Bimmerforums. I don't know how suitable they are for the street:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=680830

magnetic1
02-02-2007, 07:17 PM
Have you heard/tried the Z-rated pads from performance friction?

I am thinking about running either the PFC Z-Rated or Hawk HP+, but even my friends who have run HP+ are telling me to run the Z-Rated. Supposedly, the Z-rated is an excellent street pad that can hold it's own at HPDE's.

No 'dual duty' pad is going to be all that good for either.

Just get a dedicated set of track pads.

Ive tested Carbotech's XP16 before they were released and they are pretty darn awesome. They are similar in cost to PFC01s and Hawk HT14s.

The one good thing about Carbotech is less rotor wear. But all three pads are very good.

Ive got all in stock and offer NCC members 10% off.

Contact me with your specifics (tire type, experience, car, etc) and I'll try to match a compound to your needs. Thanks.

Car54
03-07-2008, 09:03 PM
Do not run street pads in the rear with track pads up front. All that means is that your rear brakes won't be doing anything. You'll also melt through them pretty quickly.

Hate to revive an old thread...but is this gospel or opinion? I'm thinking of running HT-10's up front and OEM rears at Summit Point main next month. No good?

1996 328ti
03-08-2008, 06:21 AM
Hate to revive an old thread...but is this gospel or opinion? I'm thinking of running HT-10's up front and OEM rears at Summit Point main next month. No good?
This really depends on the car and driving style.

My setup was track pads front and rear.
At the time I think I was running Carbotech XP8 front and rear.
My instructor notice the rear wiggling at moderate to hard braking.
I installed my Carbotech Bobcat or maybe Ultimate Axxis on the rear.
Braking improved. Now I run XP11 up front and XP8 on the rear.

Different brake pads will change the brake bias of the car.
In my case I had too much brake at the rear.

That's the story I had last year and I'm sticking to it.

woodym3
03-08-2008, 09:04 AM
Hate to revive an old thread...but is this gospel or opinion? I'm thinking of running HT-10's up front and OEM rears at Summit Point main next month. No good?

About the time you were born I ran Performance Friction pads on the front of my '87 325is and the OE-like Metal Masters on the rear. Much to my surprise, the rears wore out in a weekend at Mid-Ohio while the fronts showed almost no wear. I haven't tried a similar combination since then.

Car54
03-08-2008, 09:15 AM
About the time you were born I ran Performance Friction pads on the front of my '87 325is and the OE-like Metal Masters on the rear. Much to my surprise, the rears wore out in a weekend at Mid-Ohio while the fronts showed almost no wear. I haven't tried a similar combination since then.

Surprised you can still remember.

Oh and thanks for the tip.

woodym3
03-08-2008, 10:54 AM
Track stuff I can remember. What I had for dinner last night is a little fuzzy.

clutch
03-08-2008, 11:32 AM
I'll add another type to the mix..

For an E46 330 coupe. Using PF97's in the front just at the track, new OE's in the rear. I haven't had a chance to really see what the combo could do since it rained both days the first DE I tried with them. http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/compounds.htm

When I first changed pads and rotors last year with 7 track days and 40K miles on them, the rears looked good and the rotors didn't really need changed, but I did anyway. The front rotors were warped and pads pretty thin. Installed OE Brembo rotors on the front. Maybe e46's have a lot more front bias and the rears don't contribute that much?

Anyway, I'm going to measure the front/rear pad thickness before and after. After reading the replies, it sounds like I might have to get a better rear pad for track use.

Nick325xiT 5spd
03-08-2008, 11:33 AM
Hate to revive an old thread...but is this gospel or opinion? I'm thinking of running HT-10's up front and OEM rears at Summit Point main next month. No good?
It depends on your driving style. What happens is that you will never notice when the rear pads overheat and fade away. This causes two problems: 1) That much more force on your front brakes, and 2) your rear pads will literally evaporate.

The problem you'll then encounter is that your front brakes will be more stressed and if you're not careful, they'll go away too. It's not opinion. I found it out the hard way at 150MPH at the 500ft. marker on Summit Main. A lot of it depends on the car - I suspect that FWD cars have essentially no rear brake bias because I hear from a lot of those guys that they can't get track pads to work in the rear. BMWs really want a pad that can hold up in the back.

Basically, if you drive hard enough to need track pads in a BMW, you really need them all around.

Nick325xiT 5spd
03-08-2008, 11:35 AM
I'll add another type to the mix..

For an E46 330 coupe. Using PF97's in the front just at the track, new OE's in the rear. I haven't had a chance to really see what the combo could do since it rained both days the first DE I tried with them. http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/compounds.htm

When I first changed pads and rotors last year with 7 track days and 40K miles on them, the rears looked good and the rotors didn't really need changed, but I did anyway. The front rotors were warped and pads pretty thin. Installed OE Brembo rotors on the front. Maybe e46's have a lot more front bias and the rears don't contribute that much?

Anyway, I'm going to measure the front/rear pad thickness before and after. After reading the replies, it sounds like I might have to get a better rear pad for track use.
The E46 330s have huge rear rotors. You still want a mild track pad back there.

(Also, DO NOT LET PF97 DUST SIT ON YOUR CAR/WHEELS - if it gets wet it'll damage your paint. Other than the dusting, they're awesome pads. For some reason PF01 dust isn't anywhere near as aggressive.)

Car54
03-08-2008, 12:01 PM
Thanks for the responses Nick. Could I go with less of a pad in the rear than the HT-10's? Maybe a HP+ like pad? I think your response is going to be, if you're going to change your pads, swap in proper track pads.

1996 328ti
03-08-2008, 12:29 PM
Now that I remember, my rear street pads where shot after that weekend at Mid-Ohio.

Car54
03-08-2008, 02:13 PM
I bought some 80% Porterfield R4's for the rear for $40 shipped. Everything I've searched shows they're a comparable pad to the HT-10s.

VA 330Ci
03-08-2008, 02:44 PM
FYI, After originally asking this question, I went with Hawk HT-10 all around. I am truly pleased withese pads. Get me to the track and perform great on the track. They dont leave any deposits either.

woodym3
03-08-2008, 03:06 PM
I bought some 80% Porterfield R4's for the rear for $40 shipped. Everything I've searched shows they're a comparable pad to the HT-10s.
80% by your meaurement or the seller's? I just measured a new set of R4 at 12mm thick front and 11mm rear. Was the seller unhappy with the performance? I like the R4.

Car54
03-08-2008, 03:41 PM
It was from pbfut, know him? He's gutting his M-coupe.

http://www.pbfut.com/GarageSale/listings.htm

http://www.pbfut.com/GarageSale/Images/rbrake.JPG

Car54
03-08-2008, 03:51 PM
Here's is coupe's condition now....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAGbnOKisGM

Nick325xiT 5spd
03-08-2008, 10:26 PM
Thanks for the responses Nick. Could I go with less of a pad in the rear than the HT-10's? Maybe a HP+ like pad? I think your response is going to be, if you're going to change your pads, swap in proper track pads.
What I'm told is that the HP+ doesn't have a much higher temperature range than normal street pads. It's pretty frigging awesome on the street and for autox (NOTHING outbrakes the HP+ at moderate temperatures), but I'd be concerned about it on track. Also, the HP+ is not a cheap pad, so you're not really saving anything there.