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woodym3
11-16-2006, 09:19 AM
Unfortunately Steven closed down the November school thread that turned into a discussion of what you would like to see in 2007. So I'll start a new one.

Much of what Dave Apgar and the Collies said in post #64 is true. One exception is that the chapter CAN afford to lose money on events at this time.

The truth be told, our schools are organized and run by a very small cadre of people. It is a chore to run one of these events. Any volunteers to help on a regular basis?

It has always amazed me that the Potomac Region PCA can continue to put on so many schools each year including annual events at Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen and VIR. When PCA's Club Racing program started growing over 10 years ago, the DS program lost many many experienced workers and instructors. Yet somehow they kept the DS going. Anyone want to offer an explanation?
Anyway, if you want more than the expected 4 events put on by NCC at the Summit Point tracks, follow Steven's advice and get a joint membership with Genesee Valley, Tarheel or one of the Ohio Chapters.

1996 328ti
11-16-2006, 01:57 PM
Much of what Dave Apgar and the Collies said in post #64 is true. One exception is that the chapter CAN afford to lose money on events at this time.Yes we can and that is why we haven't been raising the cost of the driving schools despite track rental and insurance rates going up.

I don't believe we had a waitlist for the JC school so we were able to accomodate everyone who applied. The main track had a waitlist but I also believe every chapter member who signed up for both days got in. Don't quote me on that.

FT
11-16-2006, 03:02 PM
It has always amazed me that the Potomac Region PCA can continue to put on so many schools each year including annual events at Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen and VIR. When PCA's Club Racing program started growing over 10 years ago, the DS program lost many many experienced workers and instructors. Yet somehow they kept the DS going. Anyone want to offer an explanation?

I'll give it a shot even though I do not know most of the history about PCA and DEs.

First, there are 5 run groups with about 25 cars per, I never felt that it was over crowded at any of the events. The first 2 run groups are instructed, the later 3 are not but you can request an instructor. Moving from group to group is very tightly controlled and requires two seperate instructors and chief instructor's approval. I found that the drivers abilities within run groups are well matched, better than NCC's IMHO.

The two highest groups are primarily for racers with normal cars, and the highest group is for actual race, cup and pro cars and drivers. There are many pro race teams participating in DEs for test and tune and to learn tracks, and most also instruct lower group students.

One thing that I find to be great is that PCA has many chapters but if you are member of PCA, you can attend any event at any chapter; none of this "dual membership" stuff.

They also have many volunteers and use either BSR staff for corner workers or SCCA. I am not sure what the volunteers get, but it seems they do get something. It is not fair for me to sign up for voluteer work, take on the responsibility on a "regular" basis and pay full price for track time. I love the sport, I really like the community, but sorry, I cannot just donate my time in that manner; there has to be a middle ground. Even for autox, we used to allow voluteers to participate for free, something similar has to be offered for DEs.

One additionaly thing is that I don't think you can increase the number of participants without doing something different on how you obtain instructors for those students. PCA charges instructors at 50% rate, I think that is fair as long as they get the track time just like other participants.

For $300, I went to VIR for 3 days, 4 30-min sessions each of those days with 1.5 hour rest time between sessions. It was absolutely wonderful, best DE I've ever attended. The SP Main circuit event I went two weeks ago, was $225 with 3 25-min sessions for 2 days. To me those are great deals, and I think that is the reason they are always booked within the first 30-min of opening the registration. I wait until 1 am to get in front of the computer to ensure a spot :)

SharkD
11-16-2006, 04:59 PM
FT,

PCA's all well and good, so long as you have a Porsche VIN... er, serial number handy. But for those of us who don't own a little piece of Zuffenhausen, the discussion is moot. And the "dual membership" gripe is one to take up with the National Office, since NCC doesn't have much say.

The fact of the matter is that Summit Point is the closest track for the vast majority of the NCC membership. In addition, while VIR is a spectacular facility, the NCC is not the only organization to figure that out, so it's both difficult and expensive to secure a weekend date. Also, while many of us hardcore track junkies would be willing to drive from DC to VIR, there's a lot of casual HPDE-ers who wouldn't -- while money isn't tight it is a factor and hemorrhaging it is never good.

Once Dragon's Ridge (http://forum.nccbmwcca.org/showthread.php?t=1300) and High Rock (http://forum.nccbmwcca.org/showthread.php?t=2010) open (assuming they ever get built), it will take some of the pressure off of club dates for VIR and perhaps help to keep the cost of renting the facility a little more stable, but that's at least 2 years away.

As said in the thread from the Nov. school, the number of HPDEs is largely a function of the volunteers' time and energy and with the shortage of dedicated people, it's hard for the NCC to manage more than 4 HPDE weekends per year. (Which is sad, considering that the NCC has the largest membership in the country, IIRC.) I'd be willing to help, but the commute would be a real bear. ;)

The same is true of corner workers -- the NCC had volunteers for a long time, but had extreme problems with people electing to not show up, or the quality of the staffing was less than desirable given the important safety role. (Not that BSR's are always better -- in October, I had a flagger point to an oil slick in T3 of the main track, rather than bother to pull out a flag during a qualifying session.)

In addition, I highly appreciate the separation that NCC maintains between club racing and its HPDEs. Renting run group time out to race teams is not a good idea, IMHO, nor does it send the right message to some students, who might already have a blurred concept of the distinction between a school and a race weekend. (My perspective comes from having attended both NASA HPDEs and Tarheel chapter HPDEs -- where racing is often brought up by instructors).

While I plan to attend NCC schools next year (something that time, money and broken tow vehicles prevented this year), I will be doing so as a student, not a racer looking for some track time -- even if I am driving the SpecE30 (which I've kept street-legal for exactly that reason).

OwnedbyDuncan
11-16-2006, 07:58 PM
NCC offers skidpad time and I would pay for just the skidpad time. I find it more valuable than the track time. With most cars today you really aren't going to learn a lot on the track but you will on the skidpad. PCA has never offered the skidpad as part of there schools going back to the early 80's.

It is a PITA to run a school. Doesnt matter if you the registar, coordinator or chief instructor. Driving 5 to 10hrs to put on the school reduces the fun factor immensely. When I was coordinator I never got any track time and got 1 skidpad session on a Friday.

NCC doesnt have the instructor base the PCA Potomac does. Or the the population of potential students. Big difference between doing Summit Point versus the Glen and Mid Ohio if you have family responsibilities.

I suggest if you are interested in NCC doing out of chapter driving schools is get together find a chief instructor, a coordinator and registar and committments from enough instructors and students to make it economically viable for the chapter and present it to the NCC board.

Its your club. Chapter is here to serve you. Just one word of advice always check your track dates though because getting stuck with Easter Weekend or Mother' Day is no fun.

1996 328ti
11-16-2006, 08:24 PM
And the "dual membership" gripe is one to take up with the National Office, since NCC doesn't have much say.It is entirely up to each chapter who to accept into their driving schools. Chapters with a high demand will give priority to their own members. We give priority to NCC members, outside chapters, then non-members. Tarheel has an early registration for their members. I'm not sure of the policy of Northern Ohio and GVC. Another $15 for each chapter in the scheme of things is not much money when you consider, motels, gas, brakes and tires.

PCA, First Settlers Region at VIR as well as other PCA regions who use Summit also have no restrictions. But they may be looking for drivers to fill the school.

We do not require our instructors to be CCA members as some other organizations do.

It's difficult to compare PCA to CCA. It seems our driving programs are different. Fatih, you are welcomed to any of our events no matter which car you bring. Unlike when I did my 2nd Zone 2 school at VIR and the CI told us they are no longer having a problem filling their school so they are restricting it to Porsches. Glad we could help. :rolleyes:

FT
11-16-2006, 11:30 PM
All good points. I think one thing got misunderstood: the DE open to racers and race cars but not to racing. That group, red, still operates under HPDE rules as required by PCA (similar to CCA) insurance rules. It is great to have them and socialize with them as there is so much to learn I think. Furthermore, green and blue groups (lowest two groups requiring instructors) are not allowed to even ride with instructors in the highest two groups, black and red. So, the environment is very tightly controlled, with the help of volunteers :)

Also, my point was not to suggest we should all go to PCA events instead of CCA even if they accepted non P-cars, but to offer some basis of comparison. The question is that NCC has the largest membership, is in the black financially, and should have more people that should be willing to participate in DE events. And since PCA can do nearly 3 times the number of events, there must be a way for NCC to do 6 or 8 events, including tracks outside of the SP trio. If do the same things over and over, the results will be the same as well each time.

There may also be no interest in the general community to have more events, and may be the whole discussion is moot. If there is more interest, and it appears that there are ways to run more events efficiently, may be then we should look at doing somethings differently ;)

At the end, for the last two weeks, I have been faced with the question of whether to renew my membership or not. The only reason I kept it last year was for DE events as I was not sure how well PCA runs their events and I only attended the Tarheel event at VIR, no NCC events. So, now that I am highly impressed with PCA events and prefer to attend it at lower cost, what's the reason for me to renew. I'll get to answer this questions in the next few weeks hopefully :)

FT
11-16-2006, 11:45 PM
Also, I forgot to add: during my first PCA DE event, we had 2 skidpad sessions @<hidden> SP.

1996 328ti
11-17-2006, 12:01 AM
There may also be no interest in the general community to have more events, and may be the whole discussion is moot.I think there are people who would like additional schools although there are people not willing to volunteer. It took sometime for us to find a registrar and we still don't have a coordinator. Obviously there seems to be a higher demand for PCA schools than CCA. I don't think any chapter does more than 4 weekends. We do not have big waiting lists even though our schools are smaller. There is a handful of us who go to Mid-Ohio, VIR and the Glen. I'm not sure how many more people would go if it was a chapter event. People are spoiled with Summit being 60-90 minutes away. 4 1/2 hours to VIR or the Glen is nothing for me. 7 hours to Mid-Ohio is a hike. But I make it once a year.

dbonner
11-18-2006, 10:45 AM
I think there are people who would like additional schools although there are people not willing to volunteer. It took sometime for us to find a registrar and we still don't have a coordinator. Obviously there seems to be a higher demand for PCA schools than CCA. I don't think any chapter does more than 4 weekends. We do not have big waiting lists even though our schools are smaller. There is a handful of us who go to Mid-Ohio, VIR and the Glen. I'm not sure how many more people would go if it was a chapter event. People are spoiled with Summit being 60-90 minutes away. 4 1/2 hours to VIR or the Glen is nothing for me. 7 hours to Mid-Ohio is a hike. But I make it once a year.

Yes, 1996 328ti and a handful of other NCC members among us do want more than 4 schools at Summit, and regularly attend 2-4 additional schools per year at VIR, Watkins or Mid-Ohio (still hope to get there!), or even other club events at Summit Main (Ferrari has a great one. When was the last time you received a passing signal from a late model Ferrari?:eek: ). After initial skepticism and some dissatisfaction with limited individual driver time on the pad, I have become a big believer in the benefits of the skippad at Summit in NCC schools. But I agree with FT that many drivers outgrow the Jefferson Circuit and like diversity among tracks, and bigger tracks. The opening of the Shenandoah Circuit has added new variety to the Summit offerings, which is good, but NCC still typically has two schools per year on Jefferson, which does encourage many more experienced students to seek schools elsewhere, whether TarHeel at VIR, Marque Madness at VIR in June (combined with Audi/Mercedes but prepare to leave on Wed. for a Thurs./Fri. adventure), or Genessee Valley at Watkins. This of course has repercussions on adequate evaluation and grooming of students for Instructor evaluation in the NCC which is another subject entirely. So would more NCC members attend an NCC Drivers School at VIR or Watkins than do now at other clubs' schools? Certainly! But would they subscribe in sufficient numbers and could we get NCC instructors and administration to participate in sufficient numbers to organize a school at another superior venue? Doubtful. It's been discussed before, and dismissed as unworkable. Our tripartite participation in Marque Madness (led by Audi or Mercedes not NCC) at VIR is as far as the NCC has gone down this path. And even then, Marque Madness isn't even on a weekend, so combined with the 4 hour drive to Danville, severely discourages NCC Member participation.

All this said, I think FT's yearning for an official NCC DS event at another track is sound, is shared by me (and I believe a growing number of us within NCC), and is something the DSSC should seriously consider for 2008, if not 2007. Hang in there. :wink:

OwnedbyDuncan
11-18-2006, 03:00 PM
.

All this said, I think FT's yearning for an official NCC DS event at another track is sound, is shared by me (and I believe a growing number of us within NCC), and is something the DSSC should seriously consider for 2008, if not 2007. Hang in there. :wink:

So get off your butt and volunteer. Talk doesnt get the sheep in the next field. As I said if you want out of the area drivers school you need to do the work. The board and DSSC need to see its is feasible. First big problem is instructors and getting the chief instructor on board. Chief instructor runs his own business and he closes it for schools. And the idea of out of the area driver schools may compromise the chapter's hunt for a new coordinator. A handful of folks interested doesnt make a school or event economically feasible for the chapter. Call and find out how much it costs to rent Mid Ohio or the Glen for three days. Wander how the new registar feels about more schools.

Did you miss the part that putting on a school is a royal PITA for the coordinator, registar and chief instructor? 3-4 weekends with all the out of region schools is plenty.

And I can remember when all we had was the big track at Summit Point.

Dave Apker
Former DS coordinator And no I am too busy training my collies and running herding trials to do it again

1996 328ti
11-18-2006, 03:50 PM
School evaluations usually show that people want more skid pad time, not track time or different tracks.

dbonner
11-18-2006, 07:26 PM
So get off your butt and volunteer. Talk doesnt get the sheep in the next field. As I said if you want out of the area drivers school you need to do the work. The board and DSSC need to see its is feasible. First big problem is instructors and getting the chief instructor on board. Chief instructor runs his own business and he closes it for schools. And the idea of out of the area driver schools may compromise the chapter's hunt for a new coordinator. A handful of folks interested doesnt make a school or event economically feasible for the chapter. Call and find out how much it costs to rent Mid Ohio or the Glen for three days. Wander how the new registar feels about more schools.

Did you miss the part that putting on a school is a royal PITA for the coordinator, registar and chief instructor? 3-4 weekends with all the out of region schools is plenty.

And I can remember when all we had was the big track at Summit Point.

Dave Apker
Former DS coordinator And no I am too busy training my collies and running herding trials to do it again

Excellent points. These obstacles explain why there isn't more impetus for people to get "off their butt to volunteer." Enjoy your collies.

FT
11-18-2006, 09:24 PM
I hope this discussion helps the chapter in some way. I do not have much to add but to say i do not buy the volunteer, instructor or chief instructor stories. If we can identify the issues, then we are half way to solving them. Since the days I have been involved with the NCC, it never lost money and always had more than know what to do with it. If volunteers is an issue, hire people, pay so called 'volunteers', do something.

I do not want to offend any one, but it is all in the leadership. If the member based wants more DEs, and that is a big if, then find a way to do it. Dismissing even the effort to find solutions right out of the bat due to lack of volunteers or what ever is not the way to approach it.

On the other hand, I feel particularly lucky that we live in the metro DC area with several other options :)

1996 328ti
11-18-2006, 09:43 PM
I
I do not want to offend any one, but it is all in the leadership. If the member based wants more DEs, and that is a big if, then find a way to do it. Dismissing even the effort to find solutions right out of the bat due to lack of volunteers or what ever is not the way to approach it.

On the other hand, I feel particularly lucky that we live in the metro DC area with several other options :)Who wants more DEs? People are not asking for more schools on the evals. If we had big waiting lists then we are not fulling the needs of our members. But we don't. Anyone who registers the first couple days gets in. And like you say, we are lucky we live in an area with other options. Ferrari, Corvette, Mazda, Audi, M-B, Porsche (except Potomac). Then there is NJ BMW CCA, DelValley BMW CCA. Plus FATT, Car Guys, NASA.

Or is this about away schools? There are plenty of opportunities there too.
VIR has Tarheel, Mazda, Audi, Porsche (First Settlers Region).
The Glen has GVC, Boston, DelValley just to mention BMW chapters.

OwnedbyDuncan
11-18-2006, 10:00 PM
I hope this discussion helps the chapter in some way. I do not have much to add but to say i do not buy the volunteer, instructor or chief instructor stories. If we can identify the issues, then we are half way to solving them. Since the days I have been involved with the NCC, it never lost money and always had more than know what to do with it. If volunteers is an issue, hire people, pay so called 'volunteers', do something.

I do not want to offend any one, but it is all in the leadership. If the member based wants more DEs, and that is a big if, then find a way to do it. Dismissing even the effort to find solutions right out of the bat due to lack of volunteers or what ever is not the way to approach it.

On the other hand, I feel particularly lucky that we live in the metro DC area with several other options :)

Boner and Ft,

Bubbas the chapter needs a coordinator. Why dont both of you volunteer to do it. Then contact VIR, the Glen, Mid Ohio etc to see what the cost is for a weekend and what dates are available. Also why dont you stop by the chief instructor's shop and ask him what he thinks about out of the area schools. Even if you dont volunteer stop by and talk to the chief instructor. Often the chief instructor isnt sure how many instructors he is going to have until a couple weeks before the event. And then he has to match students with instructors. It isnt a random process.

When I volunteered to be coordinator right after I hit my head I thought about out of the area drivers schools. After I ran my first school the idea faded and after I ran my second school I never gave this idea any consideration again. Running 3-4 schools a year was plenty of work for me. I never heard much talk of amongst the chapter members for out of area schools. Those who wanted to do Mid Ohio, or the Glen did those tracks with other chapters. I did.

And yeah the chapter used to lose money running schools and then we broke even. Havent checked the treasurer's statements in while but they arent a big money maker. After track rental fees, insurance, corner workers and other expenses the chapter doesnt make a lot on entrance fees.

Do you all have any idea what it costs to rent Mid Ohio , the Glen or VIR for a three day weekend? I guessing $35 to 40K? Anyone know? Ten years ago 3 day weekend at Summit Point used to cost the Chapter $11K.
That didnt include insurance which ran about $5k.

I think you are missing my point if you want out of region schools the members of NCC who want them need to step up to the plate and volunteer and do the work to see if its feasible. Show the board and DSSC that there is enough interest to warrant consideration and what the costs would be.

Damn I can remember when you could rent Summit Point for $500 a day during the week.

Schools arent a big deal for most members of the chapter. Maybe a 80 to 100 members do a schools in a year out of what 5000 members. More members do tours I believe.

Dave Apker

1996 328ti
11-18-2006, 10:37 PM
This thread is futile.
We do a joint school with Audi and Mercedes Benz and we get just enough students to break out even. Why do we do Thursday and Friday? Because every weekend is booked. And if it wasn't before a Mazda school, I wouldn't go. There is no way we could get enough members from our chapter to fill the school. Porsche Zone 2 couldn't do it two years in a row and that was a weekend. Mid-Ohio, let's be realistic, it's 7 hours away. The Glen, GVC has to do weekday schools because the place is so booked and expensive.

More DEs for us. If anyone thinks we are not serving the needs of our members with 4 schools, email Roy. We have board meetings the 2nd Wednesday of every month. Everyone is invited. All you need to do is contact Roy in advance. We have a DSSC meeting Nov 29 in Tysons Corner. Anyone who wants to go, again contact Roy.

Roy
11-20-2006, 09:56 AM
Correct.

If a reader of this thread wants to influence the Drivers' School program, please come to the DSSC meeting on Wed. Nov. 29 at 2070 Chain Bridge Road, Suite 150, from 7 pm to 9 pm. Be prepared to volunteer in some way to help, as this is an all-volunteer organization. My phone number is 703-851-6017 and I am always happy to talk Club business.
-Roy Morris
DSSC Chair; Chapter President
rmorris@<hidden>

gwilson
11-20-2006, 04:12 PM
When other chapters do "road trips" they generally employ one or both of two strategies to make the events feasible. One is to augment their instructor corps with those from other chapters (or even other marques). The other is to run a significant number of uninstructed students. Foe example, when NJ or Delaware Valley run at Summit Point, they often call on NCC instructors to help out, or other area instructors who have yet to qualify as NCC instructors. This summer at the Glen, Delaware Valley had 3 students assigned per instructor in many cases, but all A students were "presigned-off" and were uninstructed in most sessions. Neither of these methods is apt to be embraced by NCC. Currently, we have stringent check-out requirements for new instructors that involve the track and skidpad. We also have the lowest sign-off rate of any chapter I have ever run with. So the most likely way to add to schools would be pooling with other chapters and/or marques, but remaining separate from standard NCC schools.

OwnedbyDuncan
11-20-2006, 04:48 PM
There is a reason for our procedures. NCC has less incidents than most other chapters.

It is interesting that folks who complain about NCCs drivers schools there arent enough, they want out of area schools or complain about registering and notification when challenged never step up to the plate and volunteer to help out. My experience is very few if any of the complainers or whiners ever volunteer to help.

A suggestion for out of area schools would be to have the drivers work corners and it should be mandatory. No work no track time.

Dave Apker

FT
11-21-2006, 12:04 AM
Dave, quite that volunteer stuff dude, I did my tour of duty to the chapter for two years; you are making assumptions and generalizations and accusing without any basis. Either state your opinion about the 'issue' or just keep your personalized thoughts to yourself.

1996 328ti
11-21-2006, 08:09 AM
Dave, quite that volunteer stuff dude, I did my tour of duty to the chapter for two years; you are making assumptions and generalizations and accusing without any basis. Either state your opinion about the 'issue' or just keep your personalized thoughts to yourself.I have to agree with FT on this one. The volunteer card is getting old.

jkuper
11-22-2006, 04:19 PM
Dave, I apologize in advance since I don't know the history of NCC dating back to 80s, but aside from this message board, what is your involvement with the club now?

SharkD
12-02-2006, 04:01 PM
From a discussion on Bimmerforums (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=643263):
This just came up last night at our meeting.
For us, equal will mean equal. Same brand seat, left and right, same belts, left and right. Same harness mounting points, left and right. I'd like to have our wording read, equal or better for the instructor. No instructor has to get into a car that he or she does not feel comfortable in. It doesn't matter if that student sits on the grid all day waiting for an instructor. Our admissions policy will be in black and white.


Steven,
exactly equal restaints and seats is pretty over the top - what is the rationale for being this strict?
It would seem that you could trust the tech steward to assess comparable safety without mandating exactly the same. Heck, lots of instructor cars won't pass this test.Our tech consists of a few volunteers who are also students. Our schools are relatively small and we really don't have anyone that knowledgable. Nothing is cut in stone, but as you can see, equal has various interpretations. Maybe at the next DEC conference it could be spelled out in black and white?

Steven, is this really the case for the 2007 NCC schools? If so, I agree with Bruce that the interpretation is too strict. (Had I known that this would be a topic of discussion, I would have driven the 5+ hours to attend the meeting.)

In my case, I have two different-brand race seats in my E30, (a recaro and a corbeau) and I was planning on buying a 5-year FIA cert 6-point Schroth for my driver's side and a 2-year SFI cert 6-point G-Force for the passenger side (to replace a pair of 2-year old 6-point G-Forces). I don't see why I can't provide equal protection with different brands, so long as the certifications are up-to-date (a much more important factor than brand, IMHO).

1996 328ti
12-02-2006, 06:31 PM
don't see why I can't provide equal protection with different brands, so long as the certifications are up-to-date (a much more important factor than brand, IMHO).I don't know how it will worded.
We need to be able to define equal. In plain black and white. I knew I should have stayed out of that one.:rolleyes:

Currently our admissions policy doesn't officially talk about seats.

Cars must be insured, street-legal, quiet, and must have passenger seats. Functional, securely attached lap and shoulder belts are required for both front seats. The front seats must have equal restraint systems available (e.g., if the driver has a five-point harness, the passenger must have a five-point harness as well). Performance-enhancing modifications and R-compound (racing) tires inhibit learning and are strongly discouraged. If roll bars or cages are installed, they must be fully padded above the level of the front door window sills.

I believe the concern is that a student can show up with a nice, adjustable Recaro and the instructor gets an aluminum shell bolted to the floor. They are both racing seats. People have different interpretations of being equal.
Nothing is set in stone and the wording will be fair to the driver and instructor.

SharkD
12-02-2006, 11:58 PM
I entirely understand what you're getting at -- the standards need to be safe, unambiguous and easy to implement.

I can imagine that far worse than the student who shows up with the kirkey bolted to the floor is the one who's still running an OEM passenger seat and a 5- or 6-point harness. That said, I've experienced a fair amount of "unequal" equipment in instructor cars, including a driver's side race shell and a stock passenger seat, with 5-point belts.

I also believe that equipment certifications need to be checked for expiration -- not just the helmet certs.

Perhaps the solution would be to allow the instructor the right to refuse to ride in the student's car if he/she deems, before the first session of the day, that the safety equipment is unequal or unsatisfactory from a functional standpoint (and the student has the right to appeal once, to the chief instructor, before the start of the second session). (And make it perfectly clear to the student, before the school, that it's his/her responsibility to ensure equal equipment and that if the instructor's refusal is upheld, they're SOL for the weekend unless they feel like fixing the issues with a trip to the OG store.)

Scotty
12-06-2006, 05:45 PM
Is there a schedule published somewhere for the 2007 schools? Between NASA HPDE, BMWCCA, and the new SCCA PDX, I need to start sorting out the season. :)

1996 328ti
12-06-2006, 07:32 PM
Is there a schedule published somewhere for the 2007 schools? Between NASA HPDE, BMWCCA, and the new SCCA PDX, I need to start sorting out the season. :)I have had our tentative schedule posted for a few days now.
http://www.nccbmwcca.org/index.php?driving_schools
The schedule is always subject to change.