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slantsixm3
05-13-2006, 06:28 AM
Since it's on ongoing question with new school participants, and products and technology are constantly changing, I thought it might be good to get direct experiences with the different track pads people have tried.

Direct experience only please, there's plenty of hearsay on the Internet already.

Comments on stopping power, temperature resistance, pad/rotor wear, and dust problems would be a great place to start. why dust? keep reading.

I've used a few:
Stock pads: Worked fine for C group experience, but easily overheated once I had a few schools. Pad consumption is very high when tortured at a driver's school. Of course, easy on rotors, lotsa easily cleaned dust.
Cool Willy's: Excellent for C/B/A transition, easy on rotors and friendly gray dust. Good stopping power when hot, but showed temperature failure as I got faster in A group, edges of the pad started to crumble, vertical cracks in the pad material.
PF 90: my favorite track pad, characteristics similar to cool willies but withstood more heat. I rarely overheated them. Excellent stopping power and temperature resistance, rotor friendly, lotsa easily cleaned dust. Now NLA, thanks Performance Friction.
PF 97: recommended by PF to supersede the 90's. Excellent hot stopping power and temperature resistance. rotor wear seems moderate WHEN HOT on the track. When cold, driving to/from the track, rotor wear is severe, you can hear them grinding away. I'm told this is the nature of the pad material. Dust from these is a nightmare. They produce a dark dust that seems benign enough till it gets wet, then it hardens into a Portland cement like mixture that is unremoveable my any means known to man. So of course it rained sometime during almost every track weekend I've used them. The finish came off my wheels before this stuff came off.

So now I'm looking for a high-temp track pad that won't eat my rotors or destroy my wheels. Any suggestions?

I'm wondering about
Hawk HP-10
Carbotech XP9, XP10, XP11, XP12, XP?
Pagid Yellow Endurance
Performance Friction compounds other that 97

feel free to comment about any direct experience you've had with track brake pads.

Thanks very much.
- Joel B.

ChosenGSR
05-13-2006, 09:42 AM
I think this thread has potential of being a really useful and insightful thread. There is already a pretty good brake pad thread on bimmerforums, in case anyone looking for more information. Personally I have only experience with the stock brake setup, however I am about to purchase a set of Hawk HT-10s for the front and I am not yet sure about the back. I completely agree with you as far as progressing in DEs, you'll definitely need more stopping power than the stockies offer. At Ofest I completely destroyed my front brakes. The dealership wasn't too happy about replacing them either. From what I read (bimmer forum brake pad thread) the HT-10s are excellent and one of the most innovative pads out there. They are however expensive. Being that my stock rear setup seemed to holdup last year after all the DEs, I think I'll go with a high performance pad in the back, but not a dedicated track pad. I am going back to VIR next month, and I'll definitely report on how the HT-10s holdup vs. the stock setup.

1996 328ti
05-13-2006, 03:03 PM
I'm going with Carbotech XP9s next.
Currently I used Carbotech PantherPlus which are a few notches below the 9s.

Pinecone
05-14-2006, 09:28 AM
I haven't had trouble with the Cool Willy pads. Maybe you need some brake cooling?

And an E46 M3 is pretty hard on pads, fast and HEAVY.

Elwell149
05-14-2006, 03:01 PM
Myself, and many others, have had the same experience with HT-10s. They are quite non-linear in their generated braking force. You come up to a corner and trounce on them, and there's some braking, but then after about 1 second - yowee - you're parked!

Since the ultimate braking force is more than I've experienced with any pad, I kind of liked them for open-track days - you could time the braking quite well. But once I started racing, they were a disaster - try a dive-bomb move on the inside of someone going into a corner - apply brakes late........ then, suddenly you're BEHIND the car you're trying to pass - much more difficult to master.

I now use Hawk Blues for racing, but they are rotor eaters when driven cold (like on the street, or in the rain on the track) and shed rust-making dust that has to be washed off immediately. Otherwise, they're great.

I've heard great things about Pagid Orange, but they don't make a pad to fit my AP brakes.
Joe

ChosenGSR
05-14-2006, 05:11 PM
I'm going with Carbotech XP9s next.
Currently I used Carbotech PantherPlus which are a few notches below the 9s.

Steve, if I remember correctly I read somewhere prior that you had issues going back and forth between Carbotechs and street pads on the same rotors. I really like the pricing of these pads, however I need to be able to swap my OEM pads back on and not have deposit issues. What's latest on this issue? Also, I see that everyone recommends brakeswap as a place to purchase these, but their website only shows M3 fitment?

Thanks.

1996 328ti
05-14-2006, 08:40 PM
Steve, if I remember correctly I read somewhere prior that you had issues going back and forth between Carbotechs and street pads on the same rotors.Nope. I did have deposits once but I think that is because I left my track pads on too long and it rained. Then swapped with Ultimates. I think the compounds mixed. Up until then I never had a problem.

AG
05-15-2006, 12:02 AM
Also, I see that everyone recommends brakeswap as a place to purchase these, but their website only shows M3 fitment?


The E46 330i and E46 M3 fitments happen to be the same.

Dirichlet
05-15-2006, 10:49 AM
I just put a set of Hawk HP Plus pads on my car - for "street, track, and autox use"... I'll let you know how they hold up after this weekend's school.

odortiz
05-15-2006, 01:14 PM
i'm told hp+ has a simmilar temp range as hps. the friction falls off a cliff when overheated. i like the friction of the hp+ but the dust is corrosive, so you have to clean the car before it gets wet/dries.
i'm using bhp brakes. it's a steet pad with a max temp of 1200 deg.
friction level close to hp+.
only available in porsche/stoptech fitments and hopefully, less than a month and a half away, m3 fitments will be released.
these are my favorite pads. i have tried hps, hp+, ht-10, axxis ultimates.
i'm on street tires and my car is very lightened so, i can get away with a cooler pad than lots of folks with full interiors
i have had pad failure going into turn 1 at summit main and sailed into the gravel. i was using hps at the time.

slantsixm3
05-15-2006, 01:20 PM
Good stuff guys, don't stop now.
Please, anybody throw in your direct experience.
I'll be on the lookout for bhp products.
- Joel B.,

white_2kgt
05-15-2006, 02:01 PM
I have used,

Hawk
-- Black
* Crap, fell apart after 2 sessions, compound fell off the backing pad, awful dust
-- Blue
* Crap, all gone after 2 sessions, awful dust.
Carbotech
-- Panther
* Great on the street, great for a NOVICE HPDE, anyone in a heavy car/deep braker on track and you will overheat them in short order, very, very low duster. I use this on the street.
-- XP8/9/10/11
* Hands down amazing pads. I have progressed up to the 11's now and have a set of 12's waiting for tryouts. Best pad I have ever used. Dust must be cleaned within a week or you'll hate yourself, but worth it. Only pad I use on the track anymore. Little expensive, decent on rotors (when used as a TRACK ONLY pad). They will take abuse and ask for more. Don't expect them to last all season if you really use them, but they are worth it.
Performance Friction
-- 'Z'
* Good street/beginner HPDE pad, low duster. I'd still go with the Panther pad over this one, I don't think it is available anymore anyway.

Dirichlet
05-15-2006, 02:32 PM
i'm told hp+ has a simmilar temp range as hps. the friction falls off a cliff when overheated. i like the friction of the hp+ but the dust is corrosive, so you have to clean the car before it gets wet/dries.


^^^ good to know before going into the HPDE this weekend... Would you expect them to overheat on Shennandoah, and how much of a failure in braking would I experience if they did?

slantsixm3
05-15-2006, 08:06 PM
If you pay attention to your braking zones (don't wait tooo long), you should be fine on the Shennandoah. It is not as hard on brakes as Summit main. There is one medium, and one hard, braking zones, but the track is longer and twisty, which results in lots of intermediate speed, brake cooling time per lap.
thanks to white 2kgt for more good feedback.
- Joel B.

SharkD
05-16-2006, 10:55 AM
E24 (E32 fronts, E34 540 rears)
Metal Master - smooth intial bite, some fade after multiple high-speed laps on the Jefferson; very dusty Pagid/PBR Deluxe - good modulation, less fade; long lasting; moderate dust
E30 (Stock size, Power Slot fronts)
Green Stuff - Practically worthless, especially on higher speed courses like VIR Hawk HPS - Good modulation and initial bite, some fade after 8 hot laps on high speed tracks like VIR and Summit main; long lasting; low dust. My street/autocross pad of choice. Hawk Blue - Great modulation, good fade resistance; moderate lifespan; highly corrosive and dusty Hawk HT-10 - Okay initial bite, fair modulation; great fade resistance; relatively low dust. My racing pad of choice.

mlytle
05-16-2006, 01:06 PM
Myself, and many others, have had the same experience with HT-10s. They are quite non-linear in their generated braking force. You come up to a corner and trounce on them, and there's some braking, but then after about 1 second - yowee - you're parked!

Since the ultimate braking force is more than I've experienced with any pad, I kind of liked them for open-track days - you could time the braking quite well. But once I started racing, they were a disaster - try a dive-bomb move on the inside of someone going into a corner - apply brakes late........ then, suddenly you're BEHIND the car you're trying to pass - much more difficult to master.

Joe

too....much...cooling. ht-10's need to be hot. that 1 sec delay is the pads coming back up to temp. tape up your brake ducts.

i have been racing on ht-10's for three years in e30 and e36's. they are outstanding. i use them front and rear. zero complaints, except from the competitors when they get out-braked...:biggrin:

marshall

1996 328ti
05-16-2006, 03:34 PM
too....much...cooling. ht-10's need to be hot. that 1 sec delay is the pads coming back up to temp. tape up your brake ducts.Great! I just put in ducts!:mad:
And almost cut my finger doing it.
Right now I'm using PantherPlus but will go up to the next level when these are shot.

Dirichlet
05-17-2006, 08:30 AM
With the increase in friction (and subsequent temperature) of these high performance brake pads, is it recommended to also upgrade to a different type of rotor (other than stock)?

mlytle
05-17-2006, 11:58 AM
With the increase in friction (and subsequent temperature) of these high performance brake pads, is it recommended to also upgrade to a different type of rotor (other than stock)?

no. stocks work perfectly. been racing on them for years with zero problems. never had one warp. (i don't do cool down laps or drive around in the paddock after a session either. come in on hot lap, check tire temps and pressures in pits, park car in paddock.) those slotted and drilled "upgrades" are bling.

slantsixm3
05-17-2006, 02:08 PM
Guys, please keep in mind that Mlytle (and SharkD) are RACERS. They are not doing driver's schools, there is a big difference.
Racing works all parts of a car much, much harder than a typical driver's school will. There is also a trailer to take you home if things don't work out (typically). So when Marshall tells you that he out-brakes everyone on HT-10's and tapes up his brake ducts, you are talking about a VERY high-temperature pad, that may be a bit too much for a driver's school. Likewise, when he tells you he uses stock rotors, then stock rotors should be more that adequate for a school, despite the magazine ads, web-bloggers, etc.

Marshall, that very much for the data points, very valuable. Just trying to maintain the original context of driver's school equipment.:)

-Joel B.

mlytle
05-17-2006, 07:57 PM
Guys, please keep in mind that Mlytle (and SharkD) are RACERS. They are not doing driver's schools, there is a big difference.
Racing works all parts of a car much, much harder than a typical driver's school will. There is also a trailer to take you home if things don't work out (typically). So when Marshall tells you that he out-brakes everyone on HT-10's and tapes up his brake ducts, you are talking about a VERY high-temperature pad, that may be a bit too much for a driver's school. Likewise, when he tells you he uses stock rotors, then stock rotors should be more that adequate for a school, despite the magazine ads, web-bloggers, etc.

Marshall, that very much for the data points, very valuable. Just trying to maintain the original context of driver's school equipment.:)

-Joel B.

good points joel, thanks for adding the context emphasis.

back on original topic...:)
back when i was doing de's in my e36 m3, i used cool willies. (still have a half used set lying around somewhere!) i found them to work very well for the int/adv de environment when i was running down at sebring and moroso. ran them on stock rotors. i will admit i bought into the hype and got a set of euro floating rotors at one point.

1996 328ti
05-17-2006, 08:20 PM
i will admit i bought into the hype and got a set of euro floating rotors at one point.I read on bf.c that drilled, slotted, cryogenic rotors are the hot set up. You know, it must be true. Then get those lifetime pads and replace them after every DE.

That's what I'll be running at Mid-Ohio in a couple weeks.
Chuck, you better give me some room.
I might be braking as soon as I get onto the straights. :)

ChosenGSR
05-17-2006, 08:31 PM
good points joel, thanks for adding the context emphasis.

back on original topic...:)
back when i was doing de's in my e36 m3, i used cool willies. (still have a half used set lying around somewhere!) i found them to work very well for the int/adv de environment when i was running down at sebring and moroso. ran them on stock rotors. i will admit i bought into the hype and got a set of euro floating rotors at one point.
After much though I went ahead and orderd the cool willies, I think they'll be perfect for me as I've only done 4 DEs.

SharkD
05-18-2006, 01:37 AM
Guys, please keep in mind that Mlytle (and SharkD) are RACERS. They are not doing driver's schools, there is a big difference.

Actually, I'm doing double-duty; I'm racing and doing HPDEs. The E24 only got on track during DE's (before I bought the E30) and the SpecE30, while a 'race' car, is also my 'school' car -- the only functional differences between it and a bone-stock E30 325iS is the slightly larger sway bars, slightly stiffer springs, an accusump, extra gauges, brake ducts and a mild weight reduction regimen.

That said, I think the HT-10s aren't well suited to HPDE's unless you have a very heavy car that also has a lot of ooomph (like, an E60 M5 or an E63/4 M6), to keep the pad temps up -- in a lighter car (like an E30 or a Z3/Z4 coupe), the HPS's would do very well on all but the longest tracks (and they handled VIR pretty well, as it is).

dbonner
05-18-2006, 06:33 AM
Agree with many of the comments made, especially Joel's on the performance of BMW stock pads under track conditions. I used stock pads my first couple of years in DS, and though adequate, the more I pushed, the more brake fade I experienced, requiring scaling back in a session (not why you're there). This is especially true in summer schools with higher track temps. I've made two improvements since: (1) new brake ducts to improve air flow to the brakes; and (2) Carbotech XP-10 pads. The stopping power difference has been enormous, and brake fade is much more limited and predictable at the end of a robust run (the Toyo RA-1 Proxes I've added do lead to more demands on the brakes). The biggest negative about the Carbotechs (and other high performance pads) is that they are noisy when braking at low speeds on the street. I've kept mine on because I'm not a big enthusiast about changing pads back and forth, and the noise does turn heads. Doug

Real M3
05-18-2006, 12:04 PM
OK, I've been following this discussion for quite some time now, 3 pages on this thread, and here's my experience in the "Real M3". I've been running Hawk HP+ pads on the Beast for over 5-6 years now, for Autox, HPDE, and street use. Granted that the Beast isn't that heavy nor has that much HP, but even on long tracks like VIR and Mid OH I've not really experienced brake fade in my run group, B group, to date. I'm running Toyo RA-1s as well. For Autox they are very good but for street use they are noisy as hell and I get a lot of stares. My main issue, besides the noise on the street, is their ability to stop me quicker than 99% of the cars behind me, which causes me great concern in NOVA! They are also very dirty, well they are a track pad afterall. SO, depending on the weight of your car and your expertise level, I'd give them a try for the HPDE. Shameless plug, James Clay at Bimmerworld or Jack Money at Elephant Motorsports seem to have the best prices and availability.

As always YMMV
Chuck

white_2kgt
05-18-2006, 02:54 PM
... (2) Carbotech XP-10 pads. The stopping power difference has been enormous, and brake... is that they are noisy when braking at low speeds on the street. I've kept mine on because I'm not a big enthusiast about changing pads back and forth, and the noise does turn heads. Doug

Uh, big problem. For one the XP's don't really work well at low speeds, ie, not much at all. You are creating a SERIOUS problem for yourself and those on the highway around you. If you have to preform emergency braking from highway speed you may not stop in time. It takes a a full hot lap (for me) to warm up the XP10's so they preform as they should. This just isn't possible on the street. Also, using those pads at such a low temp will destroy your rotors in very short order. You need to get in the habit of swapping pads at the track or switch to a dual purpose pad, or start towing.

Not a sermon, just a warning.

slantsixm3
05-18-2006, 03:45 PM
Okay, white 2kgt, I hear you saying that the XP-10's, like several others, are abrasive on rotors, and provide little bite when cold. So far, the only pad that does NOT seem to have this trait is the Cool Willies, and now defunct PF90's.
Have you had problems with the brake dust hardening and being unremovable after getting wet? Can you tell I'm going to try these next?
Thanks for your feedback.

- Joel B.

- who changes pads before/after every track event. 60 minutes last night including jack up/down, and I'm slow.:frown:

white_2kgt
05-19-2006, 09:39 AM
Okay, white 2kgt, I hear you saying that the XP-10's, like several others, are abrasive on rotors, and provide little bite when cold. So far, the only pad that does NOT seem to have this trait is the Cool Willies, and now defunct PF90's.
Have you had problems with the brake dust hardening and being unremovable after getting wet? Can you tell I'm going to try these next?
Thanks for your feedback.

- Joel B.

- who changes pads before/after every track event. 60 minutes last night including jack up/down, and I'm slow.:frown:

The only pad I have had problems w/ the dust is the XP's. Yes it got wet and I didn't clean it for a few months. I greatly regret it now. One of my wheels I cannot get clean. Eventually I'll take it to ye old wheel and see what they can do. Now, on my second set of wheels I keep them waxed and clean them off after each event, within the week. So far no problems and they still look great. I have no experience with the Cool Willies or Hawk HT10 dust.

I never had a problem with the dust from PF pads, they also didn't grab as good as the XP's, same as the other pads I have used.

When I drove to the track I use to change tires/pads/rotors. I could get it all done in less than an hour (this was the mustang, but similar to my buddies M3, other than the parking brake thing :mad:). I suspect with some more practice you can as well. The only thing that sucks is changing them back to street after your last session, they will be HOT!

AlfaEric
05-19-2006, 09:56 AM
The only pad I have had problems w/ the dust is the XP's. Yes it got wet and I didn't clean it for a few months. I greatly regret it now. One of my wheels I cannot get clean. Eventually I'll take it to ye old wheel and see what they can do. Now, on my second set of wheels I keep them waxed and clean them off after each event, within the week. So far no problems and they still look great. I have no experience with the Cool Willies or Hawk HT10 dust.

Try using a piece of claybar. It's pretty good at pulling embedded stuff out of your wheels. Just don't re-use it on your car's paint afterwards. :wink:

---Eric

FT
05-20-2006, 10:11 AM
I'll add my 2 cents:

I tried only few pads in the past four years I have been attending DEs, Hawk, PF, and Porterfield. Every time I went back to Porterfields, I personally felt comfortable with their feel, wear and rotor-freindliness.

People complain about slow initial bite of the Porterfield, but only on the very first application for couple of seconds. Depending on the tires, I find that R4S or R4 work very well for me. Keeping in mind that I am not a high-speed tracker with only average driving skills, I found that these pads never abuse the rotors, have singinificant brake torque difference from OEM pad and they are very cost effective copare to many other pads.

The best part for me, I use R4S pads for street and R4 for track. After the initial bedding, I never have to worry about switching and bedding the pads, no glazing, no scratching, etc. I used the R4 pad for extending periods of street driving as well (sometime I get lazy changing pads) and no problems at all, including winter months.

One last note to add, Poterfield, including R4, one properly bedded have about 20% less brake dust and make very little noise.

So, I'd recommend Porterfields.

white_2kgt
05-20-2006, 09:22 PM
Try using a piece of claybar. It's pretty good at pulling embedded stuff out of your wheels. Just don't re-use it on your car's paint afterwards. :wink:

---Eric

Interesting. I have a few old ones laying around. I'll give it a shot, never thought to try that.

AlfaEric
05-21-2006, 03:47 PM
Interesting. I have a few old ones laying around. I'll give it a shot, never thought to try that.
It's surprising how many places it can be used and what it will remove. When I find a cleaner isn't removing something then it's usually embedded so clay will often pull it out.

---Eric