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SharkD
08-18-2005, 06:50 PM
In loading my E30 325is for the Shenandoah, I became curious -- I've never run R-Comps before and I've never run the Shenandoah.

Is there a steep "learning curve" for R-comps and is it a better idea to leave the race pads and r-comps off for the first day? (I have 12 NCCBMWCCA track days under my belt, on the Jefferson and VIR main, if that helps.)

Thanks.

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-18-2005, 07:07 PM
Race pads should go on, no matter what.

R compounds give you more grip, and better response, but they also LOSE grip less progressively. You have to be faster.

mlytle
08-18-2005, 08:16 PM
agree. use both. just work up to the edge of r-comps slowly. as nick said, they are less progressive when they let go than street tires. you will be amazed at how much grip they have until they don't..... once you learn where the edge is though, you can tune into it and work with it.

just let your instructor know your experience level with your new toys is.

bimmer_fahrer
08-19-2005, 07:28 AM
Dan,

I'm a recent graduate of the IA program and my suggestion is that you run with your street tires as long as you can. The difference in grip between a High Performance Street Tire and R-Compound is astronomical. But, like everyone else has mentioned, once it(R-Compound) loses grip, it goes very quickly. I'm not speaking on behalf of the all of the Instructors, but I would imagine that most of them would rather ride with you on streets. You'll have enough to learn on the Shenandoah circuit without having to factor in the "learning curve" of R-Compounds.

Greg

1996 328ti
08-19-2005, 08:30 AM
Although I do find RA1s give you feedback. Not as much as a street tire of course.
Oddly enough I am no quicker with RA1s than the T1-S. Let's just say, hypothetically, I was to time myself at VIR. I would have been no quicker with the RA1s as opposed to T1-S. I have found a comfort zone that is not dependent on tires. It wasn't until an instructor at Mid-Ohio got my tire pressures in check and worked out my brake bias that I was able to pick up more speed and extend that comfort zone. And with the encouragement of my last instructor at the Mazda school at VIR, Grand East I was able to carry more speed comfortably.

As far as our Shenandoah school goes, they may run a different configuration on Sunday so consider it a different track in some parts.

I haven't been on the Shenandoah but in my early days I was running MetalMasters on the Jeff. I am not an agressive braker although I like to brake deep. I cooked the brakes onthe second day. Could have been poor braking, crappy pads but have never gone back to the track without dedicated track pads.

SharkD
08-19-2005, 01:58 PM
Thanks for the replies...

Hmm... Well, I'm definitely going to swap the HPS's for Blues up front (and maybe my C1144's in the rear), but I'm still unsure about the tires.

Part of the problem is that the street tires on the e30 are somewhat lacking in handling -- they're fine for the street, but sort of lousy on the track; they're the previous owner's practically-new, cheapo all-season Sumitomos (r) and Yokohamas (f). (The R-Comps I bought from Barry Brown in May are moderately used Hankook Ventus RSS Z211 C50's -- RA-1s are Spec, but I'd rather start out with less pricey (read: used) R-Comps until I get the hang of them.)

The E30 is prepped for spec-e30 (stiffened suspension, roll-bar + 6-pts, no engine/ecu mods, stock drivetrain & brakes) -- it's a track rat and only a track-rat, as I have the intention on learning with the car prepped for eventual NASA/BMWCCA-CR competition.

All my days on the Jefferson (including the May 2005 1-day school) have been in the E24, running AVS ES100's that two separate instructors; over the course of two NCC BMWCCA schools have told me that I've reached the functional limit of those tires. In the two days at VIR in the 325 -- the Sumi/Yoko A/S streets were somewhat greasy.

(Now, preferably, I'd have run the May 2005 school in the (then-new-to-me) e30, on streets, but a broken rocker arms sunk that idea two days before the school.)

I'd like to think that I'm a fairly (but not overly) cautious driver, even on the track. Neither of my "track cars" are blazingly fast -- that doesn't matter to me -- but I do want to make sure that I'm limited by my current skill-set, not my equipment... (not trying to sound asinine).

Still unsure of what I'm going to do...

woodym3
08-19-2005, 02:42 PM
Thanks for the replies...

[Part of the problem is that the street tires on the e30 are somewhat lacking in handling -- they're fine for the street, but sort of lousy on the track; they're the previous owner's practically-new, cheapo all-season Sumitomos (r) and Yokohamas (f). (The R-Comps I bought from Barry Brown in May are moderately used Hankook Ventus Z214's -- RA-1s are Spec, but I'd rather start out with less pricey (read: used) R-Comps until I get the hang of them.)


Still unsure of what I'm going to do...

Dan,
Unless you plan to be using the E30 w/the all-seasons in the snow this winter, I'd leave them on for Saturday. Might as well use them up while learning the new track. Then you can use Sunday to learn the 'kook R-tires (even if there are some slight variations to the track configuration).

white_2kgt
08-19-2005, 04:12 PM
moderately used Hankook Ventus Z214's -- RA-1s are Spec, but I'd rather start out with less pricey (read: used) R-Comps until I get the hang of them.)

Run the kooks, you will be fine. Just give them a few laps to warm up and get comfortable with them. You will love it.

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-19-2005, 05:49 PM
Fundamentally, if the tires aren't squealling like pigs for you in every corner, you don't really need the r-tires.

mlytle
08-19-2005, 06:54 PM
if you are planning to race the car, don't bother with the all season tires. they will just melt/chunk/roll over anyway. go with the r-comps, even if you don't push the limits. start getting used to the feel.

track time is valuable, don't waste it on crappy tires.

note - i say this because of the amount of schools he has already done and his intent to race in near future. advice to someone not on this track would be different.

i had a set of crappy yoko r-comps i would run on the race car, only when i was bedding brakes or testing brake system changes. zero driver improvement or suspension tuning value. they came off as soon as i was sure i wouldn't flat spot a hoosier...;)

SharkD
08-21-2005, 07:11 PM
I just wanted to thank everyone for their input.

I decided to go with the R-comps and it worked out well -- based on the wear pattern, I was definitely utilizing the added grip of the r-comps today (yesterday, not so much - based on the irregular wear).

The only time that the RSS's were a liability was on the skidpad -- it was the first time that I was on the skidpad in the E30, and I've got to adjust my reactions from the way the E24 handles -- with the stickier tires, I found it difficult to break the rear loose (the broken sprinkler by the access road didn't help either).

mlytle
08-21-2005, 07:30 PM
glad you had a good time! when were you at the skid pad? i made an unscheduled visit over there on the last lap of the enduro race today...:( didn't stay long though!!

SharkD
08-21-2005, 08:07 PM
Around 1:30ish...

edit - How fast were you taking the SPMC Turn #5, if you tracked out to the Shenandoah skidpad? :eek:

bimmer_fahrer
08-22-2005, 06:03 AM
Marshal,

We were over at the Shenandoah cct. If you managed an "unscheduled visit" to that skidpad, you must have really been moving.... :)

Greg

mlytle
08-22-2005, 06:37 PM
Marshal,

We were over at the Shenandoah cct. If you managed an "unscheduled visit" to that skidpad, you must have really been moving.... :)

Greg

ha ha! i am fast, but not THAT fast!!!

yup, i visited the "other" skidpad! i haven't driven on the doah circut so i keep forgetting it's there. my brake pedal went to the floor going into turn one at a little over 125. yikes. i really like that skid pad access road...incident really reinforced being aware of your track position and knowing all the possible escape routes.

Dirichlet
08-23-2005, 05:18 PM
... have never gone back to the track without dedicated track pads.

What would you suggest as good "track pads"???

SharkD
08-23-2005, 05:59 PM
I liked the Hawk Blues that I swapped to my fronts -- I left the PBR Deluxes in the rear, but I do have a set of Mintex C1144's that I'll swap to for the Main Circuit in September (NASA HPDE).

Hawk HP+'s have also been well-regarded as a dual-purpose pad -- I think Steve "SMOODY" Moody was running them this past weekend in his E46.

1996 328ti
08-23-2005, 06:18 PM
What would you suggest as good "track pads"???
Everyone has their favorites. I use Carbotech PantherPlus on the front and Carbotech Bobcats on the rear. The Bobcats are a street pad. Street pads on the rear work better for me since I don't have much weight back there.

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-23-2005, 10:17 PM
I'm told that the Hawk HP+ has a near vertical drop off in braking torque when they overheat, and that one should not use them on the track under any circumstances. I use them on the street and for autocrossing, but I wouldn't think about doing more than a lap or two with them on track.

Hawk Blues will destroy your paint and wheels if there's any chance that moisture will get on the dust. Performance Friction 97s can do this, but they aren't nearly as bad.

Of the pads that I've used, the Carbotech XP11s and XP10s have been the best and most flexible. Hawk HT14s and HT10s are good, but they really seem to hate sharing rotors with other pads.

SharkD
08-24-2005, 01:05 AM
Hawk Blues will destroy your paint and wheels if there's any chance that moisture will get on the dust.

Ah, true... Not having any paint to begin with, I'm always forgetting that. ;)

Pinecone
08-25-2005, 09:36 AM
I have had good luck with the Cool Willy pads from Turner. Nice thing is they have enough cold brake torque you can drive them to/from the track. They do make some noise cold, and do dust, but the dust does not seem to be as corrosive as other pads.

NoSoup4U
08-25-2005, 09:41 AM
Terry -

Do you bias your brake pads, or, do you run the same f/r?

IF you are running cool willy's in the front, what do you run in the rear? Stock?

mlytle
08-25-2005, 03:18 PM
i used cool willy's on my e36 m3 back in the my de days. worked great, for all the reasons terry lists. highly recommended for de's. i used them all around. worked well with the stock brake bias.

i use the same pads (ht10's) all around on the race car also. i do have a brake valve on the front circuit so i can dial back the front pressure in wet conditions.

SMOODY
08-25-2005, 04:30 PM
...

Hawk HP+'s have also been well-regarded as a dual-purpose pad -- I think Steve "SMOODY" Moody was running them this past weekend in his E46.
I have Hawk High Performance Street (HPS) pads on the 330i, not the HP+. I did not want to switch between the track and street pads. I just wanted better fade resistance, more bite, and less dust than the stock pads.

Between the HPS pads and the fresh ATE Dot 4 fluid, I did not experience any fade issues at the DE. They do make a little noise occasionally and lose some bite when cold, but otherwise they have been a nice improvement over the stock pads.

Pinecone
08-26-2005, 08:23 AM
I run them all around. Wear looks like two sets of front pads for each set of rears.

The bias with them all around seems about right. Of course, hard to really tell with ABS. But braking into Turn 1 at VIR the car would get a little dance going with really hard, but not ABS, braking. This was on Mich PSCs, 265s all around.

I have had problems with the E46 M3 boiling Type 200 fluid, AFTER the session. So it needs a longer cool down. Plus I have switched to Motul 600 RBF. We will see at O'fest how this works. I have been considering brake ducts. Especially since I nticed that E46s have a cut out int eh backing late that dricets air into the center of the rotor, just like the expensive backing plates do. :)

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-26-2005, 10:28 AM
Motul 600 doesn't really function any better than Typ200, Terry. You still need to drive aroudn the paddock for a little while.

1996 328ti
08-26-2005, 12:10 PM
The bias with them all around seems about right. Of course, hard to really tell with ABS. But braking into Turn 1 at VIR the car would get a little dance going with really hard, but not ABS, braking. This was on Mich PSCs, 265s all around.I had that dance problem at the end of the back straight at Mid-Ohio, just before the right and left into Madness. Putting stock pads in the rear helped tremendously. I don't recall ever getting into ABS since NHIS a few years ago.

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-26-2005, 12:44 PM
I had that dance problem at the end of the back straight at Mid-Ohio, just before the right and left into Madness. Putting stock pads in the rear helped tremendously. I don't recall ever getting into ABS since NHIS a few years ago.
Stock pads on the rear is doable, and an easy fix, but I really actively dislike it if you're the sort of person who gives the brakes a serious workout.

Pinecone
09-08-2005, 08:29 PM
Motul 600 doesn't really function any better than Typ200, Terry. You still need to drive aroudn the paddock for a little while.

But the extra 40 - 50 degree boiling point won't hurt either. :)

Pinecone
09-08-2005, 08:31 PM
I had that dance problem at the end of the back straight at Mid-Ohio, just before the right and left into Madness. Putting stock pads in the rear helped tremendously. I don't recall ever getting into ABS since NHIS a few years ago.

The dance is not a problem, it means the rears are actually working. And with ABS you can't get rear lockups which are a VERY BAD THING.

1996 328ti
09-08-2005, 08:59 PM
The dance is not a problem, it means the rears are actually working. And with ABS you can't get rear lockups which are a VERY BAD THING.I don't get into ABS. I have not felt ABS since the downhill out coming out of the bank at NHIS. I did not expect to see all those cars.:eek: The car was much more stable on my 2nd day at Mid-Ohio. Could have been tire pressure, could have been rear brakes. Together the car felt much better.

1996 328ti
09-08-2005, 09:02 PM
Stock pads on the rear is doable, and an easy fix, but I really actively dislike it if you're the sort of person who gives the brakes a serious workout.Huh? You don't use brakes?

Nick325xiT 5spd
09-08-2005, 09:19 PM
Huh? You don't use brakes?
Only when Sunir checks them. ;)

1996 328ti
09-08-2005, 09:51 PM
Only when Sunir checks them. ;)
That's why there are gravel traps.:eek: