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ncbted
08-15-2005, 08:25 AM
I am about to take the plunge and put a track suspension in my E36. Thoughts on Ground Control (not advance design) vs. TC Kline vs. Turner Group N?? I drive the car to the track and around town once a week or so. I am leaning toward the Ground Control parts. Thanks- Ted

OwnedbyDuncan
08-15-2005, 08:53 AM
Check the spring rates of what is out there. I would go with Turner. Always had good service from Will and you know where to find him. Consider camber plates etc. Who will do the install? And remember on the rear suspension to make sure everything escpecially rear subframe is torq'd to spec not just tightened dwon with an impact wrench.

ncbted
08-15-2005, 09:01 AM
I was going to have Gary Martin install the parts, I have heard good things about him –thoughts? I plan to do the whole deal – to include camber plates, sway bars, and chassis bracing. All these guys to a number of spring rates – I don’t want the car to be too unyielding in the wet, what does everyone suggest for rates?

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-15-2005, 09:15 AM
G-c.

OwnedbyDuncan
08-16-2005, 05:26 AM
I would go with Turner since he specializes in BMWs and his staff generally knows what they are talking about. Go with as stiff of a spring as you can tolerate. Adjustable shocks are nice but finding the time to to adjust and tune is difficult for a car that is not raced. I prefer Bilsteins. Do not go big with anti sway bars go small with adjustibility. Use the bars to fine tune the car not to make it corner flat.

The reason I said get spring rates is because there used to be and may still be a lot springs out there that lower the car but are softer or have the same spring rate as stock. This was a big problem with E30 many years ago and there were problems with spring bind and bottoming out.

Again make sure they torque all suspension nuts and bolts to torque. My mechanic claims many of the failures on E36s and E46s are a result of not torque things to spec and putting to much torque on critcal parts.

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-16-2005, 09:26 AM
Depending on the track, "as stiff a spring as you can tolerate" can be VERY bad advice. Relatively soft springs (500-700lbs. range) are well complemented by lots of sway. The "sway bars are only for tuning, and you should use really tiny ones" mantra becomes less and less valid as the target track gets bumpier and bumpier. With no rear sway, a soft front sway, and LOTS of spring, my track car is superb at VIR. At Summit, it's almost undrivable thanks to the bumps.

If the target is a configuration that can be driven anywhere, you'll want a monster front sway, a moderately large rear sway, and relatively soft springs.

OwnedbyDuncan
08-17-2005, 05:39 AM
I ran my current set up with stiff springs and small bars back in the good old days when Summit Point had not been repaved etc. Problem with big sways is they either require reinforcing the mounts or they will rip right out. Haven't encountered a paved race track that is as bump as the back roads of Clifton or my herding instructors dirt/gravel road with is about a 1.5 miles long as is a blast at speed. Again the biggest problem with finding a good set up for the track that is tolerable on the street is finding decent spring rates. There is a lot of crap out on the market.

One option would be M3LTW springs, Bilstein shocks and a nice set of adjustable bars to go along with camber plates. Ask Pete sometime about what he thinks of stressbars and BMW's

Barry
08-17-2005, 09:04 AM
I am about to take the plunge and put a track suspension in my E36. Thoughts on Ground Control (not advance design) vs. TC Kline vs. Turner Group N?? I drive the car to the track and around town once a week or so. I am leaning toward the Ground Control parts. Thanks- Ted


Ted,
The first question you should ask yourself is:
Are you currently able to drive your car on the track at 9/10ths or 10/10ths?

If not, IMHO, it is premature to upgrade your suspension.
Just my $.02.
Barry

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-17-2005, 09:40 AM
I ran my current set up with stiff springs and small bars back in the good old days when Summit Point had not been repaved etc. Problem with big sways is they either require reinforcing the mounts or they will rip right out. Haven't encountered a paved race track that is as bump as the back roads of Clifton or my herding instructors dirt/gravel road with is about a 1.5 miles long as is a blast at speed. Again the biggest problem with finding a good set up for the track that is tolerable on the street is finding decent spring rates. There is a lot of crap out on the market.

One option would be M3LTW springs, Bilstein shocks and a nice set of adjustable bars to go along with camber plates. Ask Pete sometime about what he thinks of stressbars and BMW's
What rates are your stiff springs? Given that the guy said he wants to go with GC, TCKR, or TMS Gruppe N, he's looking at linear rate springs of a rate that HE specifies, or they specify according to what they think his needs are. I don't believe that they even have springs that he could use that are less than stock.

I have this sneaking suspicion that given how focussed you are on the spring choices that he isn't even looking at (and aren't even relevant to any of the suspensions he's considering), your idea of very stiff is my idea of quite soft.

...and I guess that must be where the "spring must be better" thing came from. E46es don't seem to have any issue with big bars.

mlytle
08-17-2005, 06:20 PM
my definition of a stiff spring is >800lbs....right ballpark? :)

Nick325xiT 5spd
08-17-2005, 07:18 PM
my definition of a stiff spring is >800lbs....right ballpark? :)
Sounds about right to me.

Sigfod
09-10-2005, 10:31 AM
Ted,
The first question you should ask yourself is:
Are you currently able to drive your car on the track at 9/10ths or 10/10ths?

If not, IMHO, it is premature to upgrade your suspension.
Just my $.02.
Barry
I fully agree with Barry, only because I didn't follow his advice. It is much harder to figure out the limits when you are trying to figure out the car at the same time.

Pinecone
09-25-2005, 04:50 PM
At O'fest I saw TC Klines E46 M3 run the autocross and then later got to drive it.

I was IMPRESSED. The car looked very nice on the autocross and set a mid to upper 53 second time, with FTD at 53.2. So right there. I ran a coned 56.4 run in the LTW, good enough for 2nd in class, but it was a HP course.

Driving it on Thursday the car rides better on 19s and lowered than my E46 M3 does on 18s with stock springs and Koni SAs.

The kit he is doing for street with some track/autocross running is his Koni double adjustable kit with 400 pound springs. With the shocks set full soft the car is a great street car, but with better ride and handling than stock. Set 1/2 - 3/4 stiff all around the car is killer on transitions and on stock sways. If you add the camber plates you go from about 1 degree negative for street up to 3.5 degrees or more for autocross, and in between at about 3 for track use. Setting 0 - 1/16 toe in for street gives nice toe out for track and autocross.

For serious trackers, swap in the 500 pound rears at the track as you swaap tires and set the shocks. If you want to add sways, go for it, but you are just going for fine tuning, according to TC. I spent a good bit of time talking to him.

They have kits for all E46 and E90 3ers, not just M3s. Can also do E36 and Z3 and Z4 suspensions. $2100 for the shocks, springs, adjusters and rear shock mounts. $550 to add camber plates. Get some people together to buy 2 or more setups, he will do free shipping.

Nick ran this setup with much stiffer springs. And Bren now runs it.

I am ready to order it, I was that impressed with it as a dual use setup.

Nick325xiT 5spd
09-25-2005, 05:47 PM
The TCKR setup was great for the street. However, a big front sway AT THE VERY LEAST is not simply for tuning. It's absolutely critical to getting the M3 to turn well. It's also so cheap and easy that anyone who spends $2,600 on them without spending an extra $200 on a front sway can safely be called extremely foolish. Without a big front sway, the M3 takes an absolute eternity to turn in.

One major issue with the TCKRs is that the rear shocks are just too damned long. The shock body is too long, and worse yet, they have too damned much travel. Rear springs falling out are a very real worry with the TCKRs, and they are very prone to bottoming out if you don't run them much higher than you really want to. Just ask Brendan about his drive to Topeka. :eeps:

That said, I really liked my TCKRs. They were great street shocks that also do damned well on the track. I got rid of mine because they don't transition as well as I would like them to, and because they can't handle the spring rates I like on my track car.

Pinecone
10-04-2005, 12:15 PM
We are putting Turner sways on the cars also.

But the setup with 400 pound springs does turn in a lot better than stock.

Also a bit more compression setting will help also, and Yes, I know you don't agree Nick. :)

And more frton sway does help balance steady state cornering.

Doby
10-04-2005, 02:36 PM
Adding more compression is a bandaid fix for lack of spring rate. Shocks are to control the springs, not control the car...

And I'm guessing the original poster is talking about an E36, so Nick's setup isn't entirly ideal. Weight and tire size has a big deal with E46's acting differently then any other 3 series.

For the E36, I would look at the TCK if the car sees a good amount street duty, and the Gruppe N from Turner if it's mainly a DE car. To run a good ride height with the TCK, you're going to have to use much stiffer springs then he likes to use, and the width of the spring/strut combo in the front kills tire clearance. The Turner stuff uses a narrower spring and allows a lower ride height and normal tire sizes. If you want GC, then go through either edgemotorworks or MPact Motorsports. Do not bother even calling GC directly because their service is that poor.

Nick325xiT 5spd
10-04-2005, 02:47 PM
If you're really serious abotu track shocks, Advance-Designs are a great option. They make a lot of noise (largely because they weigh 2lbs.), so they are not a good street solution. I liek them a lot on the track car, and they can handle a lot more spring than you'll ever want to use. I'd seriously consider them, given that they are in your price range if you're considering the TCKR setup.

FWIW, Doby, TCKR and Turner both use 60mm springs. The TCKR rear spring design works much better than the standard 60mm barrel with longer travel, though.

Doby
10-04-2005, 02:48 PM
They have different perches, and the Turner ones allow more tire at the lower ride height.

Pinecone
10-10-2005, 07:52 AM
The TCK perches are not any larger than the springs.

Pinecone
10-10-2005, 07:53 AM
Adding more compression is a bandaid fix for lack of spring rate. Shocks are to control the springs, not control the car...

Not always. More compression can help transitions while allowing softer springs for better control in the bumps. Especially if you can set low speed comrpession separately from high speed compression.

Basic tuning is to set springs for bumpiness, sways for steady state cornering, shocks for transitions. YMMV.